Drakes Bailiffs - confusing situation

[Danny54]

Hi, new here. First off, I do owe money for non payment of fines relating to a period of time in 2006 when I stupidly drove without car tax. I hope my account below isn't too confusing! I seem to have 3 debts.

 

I recently got 2 hand delivered final notices from Drakes. One for £471.67 and one for £411.67. Tonight at about 9pm, I got a phone call from a woman requesting payment so that bailiffs won't call.

 

I asked her if bailiffs had called yet and she said no. So it would seem she's not aware of the written notices I have, presumably put through the letterbox by bailiffs. She has given me till tuesday 1pm to pay.

 

The thing is, her figures differ from mine. She said £371.67 for the one that my letter says is for £471.67, so I'm not sure why she is giving me a £100 lower figure.

 

The other one is for a notice that I don't appear to have a final notice for, which she said is £120. I asked her for the drake reference number. I went to their website and pasted in my name and that reference number. It came up as £220, again, £100 difference. She hadn't mentioned the £120 one until I'd asked her if I owed them for any other debts. So she wants £491.67 total.

 

No mention of my other written notice for £411.67! If I ring her back to pay £491.67 to clear the 2 debts she discussed, what about the extra £100 registered on each of those debts on my official letters and which are also registered on their website when you type your name and drake reference number in at their payment page. If once I've paid the £491.67 by debit card on the phone, are they entitled to then ask me for the extra £200? And what about the 3rd debt of £411.67? Going by her figures, that might also be £100 less at £311.67, but is it imperative I mention it to her or not? I don't get why she didn't bring it up.

 

The phone number she gave me is completely different from Drakes number. Tried ringing her back a bit later but no answer and no anwerphone, so I can try tomorrow. I don't suppose it could be dodgy, what with her knowing the drake reference numbers? Her phone code is Manchester. Why would someone in manchester call me when their offices are in waltham cross?

 

 

Another couple of points. She said if the bailiffs attend and have no luck,

they will add £175, but not £175 for each debt, only once. After that, if I don't pay, they will apply for a warrant of arrest. The client is HMCS, and the notice says that the bailiff's authority to attend my premises and remove goods if the debt isn't paid is from the Magistrates court. It also has a paragraph saying " you should be aware that there exists a power under Schedule 4A of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act to enable us to enter your property, BY FORCE, using locksmiths where required, to execute this warrant."

 

I didn't mention this paragraph to the woman on the phone, but I said to her " they can't break in can they?" and she said no. So what is going on? Can they break in because it's a magistrates court debt? Will they definitely arrest me if I ignore the payments?

 

I've had bailiff debts in the past from Drakes (I'm pretty sure it was Drakes, I recognise their logo ) and gotten away with them. They would call a few times with final notice, then another final notice, then another final notice, until eventually they gave up. I was often out, didn't answer the door, and had hidden my car a street or two away. But they were for just parking tickets and probably local courts. Am I dealing with far more serious debts when it comes to car tax and magistrates courts? I presume I am. I'm happy to pay this £491.67, but the extra £411.67 or maybe £311.67 would be a bit of a killer, even more so if they do amend it and add on the extra £200.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Danny54

[tomtubby]

The bailiff should not be from Drakes but should be from Marston Group.

 

The fees are quite steep and have been agreed with the Ministry of Justice. There is an admin fee of £50 and an attaendance charge of £175. They cannot charge multipule charges when enforcing more than one Distress Warrant.

 

A few questions. Were you aware of the proceedings against you ?

 

I say this becuase our office have received so many queries concerning these fines with many of them relating to fines going back 5 years or more and which had been incurred at a previous address. If you were unaware of the proceeding or did not receive correspondence then it is a very simple matter of filing a Statutory Declaration which will cancel the fine. The court can re-issue it at a later stage but all enforcment action will cease. If you need further advice on this please send me a message.

 

If you fail to pay then yes there is the possibility that you could be arrested but Marston wold need to apply to the court for ths provision. In addition, you need to be aware that they have the right also to clamp your vehicle. They must have a Clamping Order first.

 

Finally, I would suggest that you contact the court where these fines were issued to ask when the Distress Warrant was issued. This is because the bailiff has just 180 days to enforce the warrant.

[Danny54]

Thanks for your reply, tom. I have sent you a pm.

[Danny54]

Can anyone else help me on some of the points I mentioned?

[Danny54]

Well tomorrow is my deadline to ring her back and I haven't had a bunch of my questions answered here nor a pm back from tomtubby yet who is probably away. So much for advice boards...

[tomtubby]

Have just picked up your message after returning back from the bank holiday break.

 

Will respond in further detail when at the offices in the morning.

[Danny54]

tomtubby, I think I jumped the gun and should have tried to check about the 180 days like you said. I paid for 2 fines today, doh. Now that I know at least one of the fines was apparently on an expired warrant, I don't suppose I'd be able to claim it back right?

 

I rang one of the courts after who said the distress warrant for that court was issued january 2007, which of course is over a year. But the woman at the court didn't know anything about the 180 days deadline though, and she was very vague about anything I asked her. I was asking her about bailiffs applying for arrest warrants, etc, and all she kept saying was that it's all down to the bailiffs, as if the court has washed it's hands of it. It's so bloody hard to get proper answers from these people.

 

 

Where do I find out for definite about this 180 days? The 3rd fine finally came up today ( the woman at marstons had a wrong postcode for me! ) but it was for £236, not the £411.67 on my notice. We agreed to pay it in a month from now, but I honestly don't think I'll bother since I'll probably find out this one is over 180 days too. I need to see some proof of this 180 days business, where can I find it?

 

I rang one of the other courts as well, no answer. Then I rang the 3rd court, and it was all recorded messages, couldn't get to speak to anyone.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Danny54

[Danny54]

Is there anyone here than can throw some light on this? I feel like I'm talking to myself, lol.

[tomtubby]

All the County and Magistrates Courts in the country were closed today in celebration of the Queens birthday. They all open as normal tomorrow.

 

The initial contracts with HMCS provide for the warrants to be enforced WITHIN 90 days. This was changed at the beginning of this year to be a maximum of 180 days.

 

Yes you can make a claim for the money to be returned. The warrant is expired and the bailiff knew it !!!

 

If you can remind me tomorrow I will provide you with the relevant clause within HMCS contract regarding the 180 day rule.

 

The bailiff MUST provide you with a copy of the warrant on request.

 

I am concerned that the bailiff has taken over 180 days to enforce these warrants. I am just wondering whether in fact the details (address etc) are correct on the warrant.

 

Did you receive the summons to attend court for these fines?

 

Did you attend court ?

 

If no to both above then you need to file an immediate Statutory Declaration. This will cancel the fine. The court may, if it wishes apply again to summons you to court, bit the bailiff costs will no longer apply.

 

Can you let me know further details once you have telephoned the court in the morning.

[Danny54]

Thanks for the info tom. What would be the best course of action to go about claiming a refund on what I paid today? Which was £491. I'm sure the bailiffs will do everything they can to not pay me back. Damn, I'm such an idiot paying that money before checking about the

warrant expiry.

 

Yep, if it's ok with you I'll remind you about the 180 day clause.

 

I don't recall getting a summons and no didn't attend court, so I guess I didn't get one. I imagine I would have been arrested if I hadn't attended a court summons? My address and postcode is correct on the final notices put through my letterbox. Interesting though that marston told me today that they had a slightly incorrect postcode.

 

Where do I get a statutory declaration form?

 

Yep, I will definitely let you know details after I've called both remaining courts tomorrow. Thanks for your help!

[tomtubby]

If you did not have knowledge of this fine then you need to swear a Statutory Declaration which will cancel the fine and all enforcement.

 

You can go to the Magistrates Court and they will provide the form for you. They will then arrange for you to complete the form in the court but you will be required to go before the Magistrates to have this Declaration sworn.

 

Alternatively we can send a template over to you to complete. This can then be taken to any firm of solicitors to be witnessed and then you need to fax the copy to the fines office that instructed the bailiff company. The fines office will in turn advise Marston Group to cease all action.

[Danny54]

tom, I've made tons of phone calls today to these courts, and NONE of the people of the various court enforcement teams know ANYTHING about this 180 days expiry clause. Not to mention how rude most of them are.

 

When I rang up one court about the fine I've agreed to pay in june, the woman I spoke to (admin officer in the enforcement section) was a bit clueless. First she said I could pay her instead of the bailiffs, and then she said she'd been told by her colleague that was wrong, I still have to pay the bailiff. Then when I enquired about the warrant, she said it was first issued 22/8/06, then cancelled 9 months later in may 2007. Another one was issued 15/6/07 and then cancelled 2 months later 17/8/07. Another one was then issued on 17/8/07 and apparently hasn't been cancelled yet. She didn't know why they were cancelled and why there is so much inconsistency between issue and cancellation times. I said I NEED to know why they were cancelled so she is going to try and find out from her manager and call me back. It seems all the bailiff has to do is request an extension or a new warrant and the courts just give it to them. Why would they cancel these warrants, and why one cancelled after 9 months and one after only 2 months? Doesn't make any sense.

 

An enforcement team woman at another court I rang is getting back to me in the next 2 or 3 days after she finds out more about the legal implications of the warrant. She said this is the first time she's ever heard of the 180 days thing. The warrant was first issued 23rd october 06.

 

And at the 3rd court, the warrant was first issued 25th january 07. The people there were useless and just said to find out if there were any extensions to the warrant or what the contract agreement is between the court and the bailiffs, I have to write in to the enforcement office.

 

The whole thing is becoming a farce, and the courts are not much help.

 

How come NONE of these court people have heard of this 180 day expiry?

 

Basically, it doesn't look like I've got a leg to stand on, does it. It would seem that between the court and bailiffs, they can keep warrants going indefinitely, so the chances of me getting a refund are virtually nil.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Danny54

[Danny54]

I rang citizens advice bureau. My impression was that if the money isn't collected within 180 days then the warrant expires. This is not the case. As long as the bailiffs act on the warrant within the 180 days, ie, send a letter or just turn up at the door, then the warrant remains unless the court cancels it. With the fact that they can renew warrants, I would say it's game over and I'll have to pay the final amount.

[tomtubby]

The contract between HMCS and the relevant bailiff companies clearly state in part 6.13 of Schedule 5 the following:

 

"Unexecuted Distress or Financial Arrest Warrants shall be returned back to the issung court within 90 days of receipt on a weekly basis".

 

This 90 day period was extended in January 2008 to 180 days.

[tomtubby]

You should find something more about the 90 day period (which has been changed to 180 days) on here:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/specification-private-enforcement.pdf