PCN mare!!**WON**

[Thailand]

I'd really be grateful for any advice on this issue. Apologies about the lenght of this post, as it is copied from Dave's other site, which hasn't been launched as such, so is very quiet. I had some advice of Danny Boy in chat yesterday, but in all honesty I'm still lost. I'm sure Dave would have given me an answer, but I think he is on his hols.

 

I have copied it over here, but had to delete some stuff due to images (that I couldn't see!) Original link is here, which maybe easier to follow:

 

cidb.co.uk :: View topic - PCN Mare

 

PCN Mare

I'm finally going to post this up!

 

Last April, as some of you will know, I lost my driving licence. By the time I had got round to it, and had viewings, I finally sold my car around the end of summer. I sent my V5 document of to the DVLA and thought nothing more of it (but I confess I never aquired the purchasers address) I never noticed at the point of sale, and was nervous as the guy wanted to pay me in class A drugs (I'm not kidding). I know now the purchaser never returned his.

 

Back in October I moved address and after completing the TTC200 scheme I got my licence re-issued here. Fortunately for me my nanna lives at previous address so I still get my mail. One day I recieved a notice from the DVLA that I was to be fined if I didn't pay 'my' road tax, of course I replied with get knotted I have sold this car a while back and sent you the relevant info (aside from omitting the purchasers address). they responded saying they would look into it, and then again to say they would take no further action. I have since found out that I am noe dis-associated with the vehicle.

 

Problem is the spanner/ drug dealer who bought my car parks wherever he feels as he knows the DVLA think the car is still registered in my name, so I have a PCN issue going back to the 12th of Dec 07. Having made numerous visits to the parking office and phone calls to them, they won't budge, as this is about money and thier incessant need to aquire it via any means possible. I have now written to the correct team at the DVLA, and they say it will takes 3 weeks for it to be investigated (the baliffs will be at my nans door by then! (I haven't dealt with this soon enough - as I annoys me that I haven't committed any offence (apart from maybe the purchasers address)

 

I now have to write and explain to the council what is happening but I am reliably informed the debt needs paying regardless, so tough titties, I won't say what my reaction was!!

 

So, I await! I'll keep this up to date and thanks in advance for any help!

 

Thai

 

 

Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:00 pm dave

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Mar 2008

Posts: 46

 

I would also write a letter to you MP.

 

The more people that do this each time the DVLA cock up the better - it at least gets the issue into the minds of those that can change this stinking, rotting pile for someone who might actually do the job rather than just creating an extention of the treasury.

 

Every time I have dealings with the DVLA, they cock something up. My poor MP must be thinking "oh god, not another DVLA one".

 

Thanks Dave

 

But I'm not sure the DVLA have cocked up? I know I sent the doc back, but it was missing info. I'm sure they are lying in saying they haven't recieved it though, because the RT issue was soon cleared up, why couldn't they just say we recieved an incomplete one.

 

Perhaps I'm being generous, maybe they are saying they didn't recieve it on purpose to back up things better for them (fiscally)

 

I'm really confused by it all, I guess I'll see what they have to say first. If they provide me with a document that says I am in the right, then it's just the sodding blood-thirsty Council left to deal with (and they can swing for it). If I don't get the reply I want then the MP it is.

 

I can't see this going my way! I like how they will probably turn round and ask for proof of delivery, not that it applies both ways grrr this country lol.

 

At least I am informed (over the phone) that I'm at least dis-associated.

 

Dave

 

I would still write to your MP. I'm sure they are lying too - they've been caught out too many times in the past for them not to be.

 

Even if you send it recorded and it gets signed for they claim to have not received it.

 

You are under obligation to return the form to them, it could be claimed that the buyer refused to give an address or that he was living NFA. Homeless people have a right to own a car too you know.

 

 

Thailand

 

hehe, thanks for that nugget Dave lmao.

 

NFA drug dealer it is lol. I'll find out if my MP is the same (should be) I'll attach the letter I sent to DVLA and a covering letter.

 

Ta muchly, I'll meet you in your local Bus stop with an update

 

 

Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:36 pm dave

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Mar 2008

Posts: 46

 

 

 

...as long as you bring the 20/20 or the 'Thunderbird'!

 

 

Thailand

 

I'm sooo getting sick of this!! I have recently found out it's two PCN's, not one.

 

I rang the sods at the council and went about explaining my situation yet again, towards the end of the converstaion (having explained everything clearly, and my future concerns) she said that it was not possible to get a warrant for my arrest as this has been decriminalised and that, no matter what i'd heard, it was impossible to get a fine. She also said if the Baliffs had no luck at previous address, then that's it..they have no luck. My suspicion was roused by the way she said decrimininalised so I said 'since when', to which she said 1991. Why do I get the feeling she was trying to fob me off with nonsense!

 

Letter to MP to follow, it's not great - but my head will explode soon!

 

Thailand

 

Dear Ms Humble,

 

I am hoping to gain your assistance in a matter that appears to have no route I can resolve myself. This issue is with Blackpool Borough Council/Parking Services and the DVLA. I have tried over and over to resolve this issue myself, but the system appears to be set up to collect whether innocent or guilty. I apologise in advance if my words are emotive, but I am simply at my wits end with this.

 

Back in October of last year I sold my vehicle, registered xxxx xxx, to a purchaser and sent the relevant form to the DVLA as required. I feel It’s worth mentioning at this point that the reason for this sale was due to losing my licence on the 24th of April 2007 (It took a few months to sell)

 

I thought nothing more of this until I received two PCN’s and a Road Tax notice. You can imagine my surprise!. The PCN’s came first, but as the Council wrote to my previous address, I did no pick them up until a while after, along with the Road tax notice. I went to the Parking office and explained my situation, to which they replied the best I could hope for is get proof from the DVLA then I could show this to the police if a warrant was put out for my arrest (as no way will I pay for an offence I did not commit). I have allowed this situation to run, as I haven’t known what to do about it.

 

The Road Tax issue was sorted out much more easily. I wrote explaining that I would not pay for somebody else’s Road Tax, and as such should stop pestering me as I have already submitted the relevant section from the V5. They wrote back and dropped the issue, citing ‘they would take no further action’ (to me, an admission they did indeed receive my form, they later went on to say they had not).

 

Obviously the DVLA hadn’t disassociated me at the proper time, and released incorrect information to Blackpool Council, allowing new owner to park wherever he feels. It has since emerged that the new owner did not submit his section of the V5 document, and I suspect the DVLA still kept the car registered in my name rather than leave it open. I cannot force the new owner to send in his documents.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the address the Council are using is a previous address and is now occupied by an old lady (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx). The situation has escalated to this matter being passed to the Bailiffs shortly, and they will visit this address. I have told the Council I do not live there, but they will still send. I refuse to give them my new address as they will send them here, and I have committed no offence!. I have also been told recently that this offence was decriminalised in 1991, and thus a warrant cannot be put out for my arrest, but this is contrary to what I was told upon my first visit.

 

I will not pay these Penalties, and I couldn’t even if I did just to get them off my back, I simply cannot afford it.

 

I have written to the DVLA again, to the PV1 team, as they may provide me with suitable evidence to show to the Council, but I fear they will still chase me anyway, and that’s if they do.

 

I no longer have any details on who I sold the car to.

 

Thank you for any advice or assistance you can give me on this matter

 

 

Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:02 am dave

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Mar 2008

Posts: 46

 

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Let the MPs actually work for their money for a change.

 

 

Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:07 am Thailand

 

Cheers Dave, boy - you fast!

 

Do you know which was telling the truth? Will a warrant be put out? Can I get fined in court?

 

Cheers.

 

 

Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:10 am Thailand

 

Joined: 27 Mar 2008

Posts: 30

Location: Casinoless Blackpool

 

 

I was told by the DVLA that I should write to the BC1 team, and that it would take 3 weeks to receive a response, well, 7 weeks later I did. I recieved the following letter yesterday:

 

Dear Mr Thai

 

 

Thank you for your recent correspondance of 26th March.

 

I can confirm that you are now not shown as the current keeper of this vehicle.

 

However, as you see from the microfilm of your change of keeper, you did not give the full name and address of the person to whom you sold the vehicle.

 

If you give me this information, I will arrange for it to be noted on the vehicle record.

 

Any statutory notice for an offence that took place after you sold the vehicle must be returned as required giving what details you can about the sale of the vehicle in order to change your liability. Only the issuing authority is in a postion to make a decision based on the evidence that you provide.

 

Yours Lynne.

 

 

Isn't it brilliant that they told me over the phone that they had not recieved my change of keeper notice, and now I have a copy of it. Now I know for sure that's how the road tax was sorted so quickly.

 

I don't now the address of the purchaser.

 

I thought I had left the address part blank, but I have written 'forgot to fill in this section'

 

So, now I have proof that they got it, but is incomplete. My question is, am I stuffed here because I simply must put down an address?

 

I don't really understand thier last paragragh either... please help!

 

Thanks.

 

My MP hasn't got back to me, aside from a postcard from HOC.

[pin1onu]

Any statutory notice for an offence that took place after you sold the vehicle must be returned as required giving what details you can about the sale of the vehicle in order to change your liability. Only the issuing authority is in a postion to make a decision based on the evidence that you provide.

What they are saying here is that you need to respond to the PCNs/Notice to Owner issued by the local council. On the Notice to Owner there is a box which you can tick which says that the contravention did not occur because I was not the owner of the vehicle. The DVLA have no power to cancel PCNs only the issuing council can do that.

 

You may be able to acheive the following with just a letter to the council but this may be a better way of acheiving the cancellation. Unfortunately it means revealing your address.

 

 

1. Obtain the background information on the PCNs in question (reference numbers etc)
   
2. Fill out an Out of Time Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the paperwork. (you can do this for free at your local court)
   
3. Send the completed form to the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre)
   


1. If the OOT is accepted then this will stop bailiff action and return the process to the NTO stage. You will need to advise the bailiff of this.
   

[*]Ask for the NTO to be sent to your new address. (Advise the council)

[*]Wait to receive the NTO.

[*]At this point you can then put your case that you did not own the vehicle at the time of the contravention. You can include details of the sale and dates - including any evidence you have of when your paperwork was received by the DVLA. If you have bank statements showing a largish deposit around that time (i.e. proceeds from the sale) then that will further strengthen your case. You could also include witness statements and so on.

Hopefully that should be enough to put an end to this the matter and get the council chasing the rightful owner (sounds like they'll need a brave man to go and clamp the car:D).

 

In answer to one of your earlier questions PCNs are issued for authorities running De-criminalised Parking Enforcement. This power was made available to councils under the 1991 Road Traffic Act. What this means is that for parking infringements is now handled by a seperate, supposedly independent body, rather than the magistrates court. So you can't be arrested for non-payment or fined anything further.

 

What is supposed to happens is that you get a chance to pay at a discount rate for two weeks at the full rate for a further two weeks. Once that time expires assuming you haven't made representations or appealed then they apply to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) to get the "debt" enforced. This basically means that they get a warrant of execution and bailiffs come calling, adding their charges as they do.

Edited May 19, 2008 by pin1onu

[Thailand]

Thanks very much for the reply, pin.

 

Obtain the background information on the PCNs in question (reference numbers etc)

 

I'm a bit confused here how I would find out I had PCN's out on me, to then go on to say they were never recieved by me. Would It be OK to say my relative lives there, and haven't picked up my mail for a long time? (and if it was, the baliffs wouldn't have any right to collect from her would they?). My relative does live there.

 

Hopefully that should be enough to put an end to this the matter and get the council chasing the rightful owner (sounds like they'll need a brave man to go and clamp the car:grin:).

 

Indeed. Although the only information they have on him is an initial and a surname! The car is still not taxed (as of about 3 weeks ago, and from what the DVLA have told me).

 

In answer to one of your earlier questions PCNs are issued for authorities running De-criminalised Parking Enforcement. This power was made available to councils under the 1991 Road Traffic Act. What this means is that for parking infringements is now handled by a seperate, supposedly independent body, rather than the magistrates court. So you can't be arrested for non-payment or fined anything further.

 

So, is it true? Do they just give up after a while? unless I'm missing something here, I like the sound of that since I'm innocent!

 

1. Fill out an Out of Time Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the paperwork. (you can do this for free at your local court

   )
   

I have had the paperwork for ages though :o and called many times, and written to the DVLA, might it be pointless to say I've just found out? I should have dealt with this earlier! I just thought sord orf because I aint done nothing.

 

My heads like a battered Outspan with all this, so I hope I am making sense.

 

Thai

[Thailand]

Sorry one more question :o

 

I have proof sat in front of me that I sold the vehicle on 10/08/2007, 2 months prior to the first offence. He didn't fill in his DOB or address and I put in 'forgot to fill this in'.

 

Is there a legal obligation to fill this in? what if he lived nowhere!

 

Sorry about all the questions.

[Esio Trot]

4. Ask for the NTO to be sent to your new address. (Advise the council)

 

If you are wary of bailiffs etc you may not want to give your current residential address.

 

You do not need to give your current address. They need an address for correspondence. Thus you could use your office address (with the bosses permission), a friend, relation, or even an accommodation address.

[patdavies]

Sorry one more question :o

 

I have proof sat in front of me that I sold the vehicle on 10/08/2007, 2 months prior to the first offence. He didn't fill in his DOB or address and I put in 'forgot to fill this in'.

 

Is there a legal obligation to fill this in? what if he lived nowhere!

 

Yes, and the legal obligation falls on the seller:eek:

 

It is not legally possible to be the registered keeper of a vehicle without a permanent UK address - no address, no sale. However, there is no duty whatsoever on the seller to check that the address is valid.

[Thailand]

I have just spoken to the DVLA, and I can't help but think that this is good news!. Lynne was bloody brilliant *adopts welsh accent*. She has updated her records that I sold the vehicle on 10/08/07, and is sending me a letter to this effect.

 

They say they cannot get hold of the new driver and that this issue is on hope??, anyway, the car has been crushed - hahahaha our little drug dealers luck ran out.

 

I now need to wait for Lynne's letter and write to parking services, and attach photocopies. I hope that will be the end of it.

 

My MP has been in touch too.

 

Down to parking services now I guess, and will contact the Baliffs if they have wrote to my previous address.

 

Please point something out if I am missing the obvious.

 

Cheers

[Thailand]

Thai 1 Council 0.

 

I won yay! Thanks for the help peeps.

[sea-sidelady]

[pin1onu]

Thai 1 Council 0.

 

I won yay! Thanks for the help peeps.

 

Nice one.