Co-OpCard CCA - can anybody find fault with this?

[willtheywontthey]

I'm slowly getting there - the legal jargon I have to do slowly then ask for somebody to confirm as langauge confuses. Got this info. form another similar thread:

 

 

1. Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7

 

This states:-

 

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expressions "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."

 

2. Practice Direction

Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail.

With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore.

1. Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

2. To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-

(a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;

(b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

3. Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.

4. This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process.

 

8th March 1985

J R BICKFORD SMITH Senior Master

Queen's Bench Division

 

Does............

b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

 

.........mean then that my DN not being posted by Royal Mail and being dated on the 8th (Tuesday) is actually counted as the following Monday??

 

eg - 8th = Tuesday, 9=Wed, 10 = Thurs, 11 = Fri (weekend) and fourth working day then is Monday = 14th???

 

am I on right track?

[palomino]

Sounds about right.

 

UKMail, TNT etc. are counted as second class deliveries.

Was the delivery sent as recorded delivery? Did you sign for it? There is no proof it was even delivered at all, much less on a specific date.

[willtheywontthey]

Not signed.

 

What I do not understand is how the banks especially are still messing up the DN issue? By now they really should have sussed this out. Are they up to something at all by still doing dodgy DN?

 

Does a court usually stick to the DN dates being invalid ... 'just like that'?

[Pinky69]

The Co-op Default Notices are all like this - I have 2 and have advised on several others. They give 14 days from the date on the letter and they are still making the same mistake. They are unlawful. Now wait for them to terminate and do not respond in any way to them until then.

[willtheywontthey]

Thanks Pinky - They sent me a letter almost 12 months ago demanding immediate payment and agreement terminated. THey also charged £60 for admin costs.

 

They set Phoenix credit on me..

 

They sent another formal demand and then another DN in March saying they 'will' terminate...

 

My numerous letters of complaint acknowledged and ignored. FOS useless.. Kept sending me statements since then... so-called cca illegible and incomplete or missing prescribed stuff.

 

Oh they did eventually write some months ago regarding my cca 'Althoug I am unable to provide a full copy of the agreement for the account that is not an indication it did not exist'. Oh and they said they are satisfied debt belongs to me. Then they stopped replying to me.

 

Fun here also

[Pinky69]

They know absolutely nothing about consumer law - and the rubbish about "full agreements" is just that - rubbish. I am taking them to court to get 2 defaults removed and I am suing them for damages in the process.

[Bazooka Boo]

I am taking them to court to get 2 defaults removed and I am suing them for damages in the process.

Pinky can you correct me or steer me in the right direction but don't the current damages fees stand at £1000 per incorrect entry??

I'm sure I have read it on here somewhere, just can't find it?

[Pinky69]

That was what was awarded in the Khoparor case. I am claiming £1500 - inflation!!

[Bazooka Boo]

That was what was awarded in the Khoparor case. I am claiming £1500 - inflation!!

 

Ha Ha, and why bloody not!

 

Yes that was what I was referring to, cheers, now suitably bookmarked.....again!

 

Boo;)

[willtheywontthey]

Pinky - Have you a thread up on this default removal issue???

[willtheywontthey]

Some general questions:

 

1. Does anybody recall the legislation that says £60 admin. charge for sending a DN or termination 'fee' in unacceptable?

 

2. Is there a stron-worded letter I can send regarding you've already terminated me so you cannot default me.. or can they? (I cannot get my head round that bit - the can they default the account still ignoring the dodgy DN)?

 

3. What if they say they did not actually terminate account despite the threat - they kept sending statements - I think it was because of FOS initially that they delayed any action until now but then again they'd still have defaulted me 'after' this termination.

 

4. Any other clues to hit Co-operative hard and to prepare me for the good fight?

[mystery1]

Pinky - Have you a thread up on this default removal issue???

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/196312-invalid-default-notices.html

 

M1

[willtheywontthey]

any clues as to what to expect next from Co-operative.. does their next stage depend on amount of debt??? Which DCAs do they use?

[willtheywontthey]

they hadn't defaulted me it seems but sent another default notice dated 8 December (to pay by 22.12.09!?) and letter dated 23rd stating they had terminated my account.

 

How many times are they allowed to terminate an account? Can they 'un'terminate an account willynilly???

 

Am I right to assume that 22nd was not correct date for the DN 'date' and so letter dated 23rd terminating is also incorrect?

 

Any links to the relevant case law / paragraph appreciated here as have new printer that works (!) and attempting to print relevant legal jargon for these letters from OCs and DCAs as it can get extremely confusing!!

[diddydicky]

once the account is unlawfully terminated (demanding the whole of the outstanding balance of the account, having not first served an effective default notice would constitute unlawful termination), it is, surpise surprise .....terminated.

 

as john cleese would say

 

it is no more

 

it has gone to that great agreement graveyard in the sky

 

it has expired

 

it is an ex agreement

 

it is totally irrelevant how many dn;s they issue after the termination or if they are correct or not since there is no agreement left against which to issue them.

 

an agreement which was unlawfully terminated and accepted as such by you cannot be unilaterally resurrected-( not even by god- so don't go looking to see if the body has dissapeared!!)

 

here endeth this mornings lesson

 

the vicar for next week will be hung on the notice board!

[willtheywontthey]

now I've read elsewhere that it is important to have written to accept their unlawful repudiation ie termination. Is this advisable or essential and is it a legal thing?

 

Also which termination whould be accepted and can it be done 'afterwrds?'

[diddydicky]

basically you need to do some thing which demonstrates that you have accepted the unlawful act rather than ignored it and intend that the other side continues to honour the agreement

 

what simpler way that to write and say so?

 

the sooner the better

[willtheywontthey]

right - the latest situation here is that a DCA has sent me a cca with the aove and a second page which despite sme element of illegibility seems to be a page which matches page 1 in size etc. I will scan later on tomorrow but I'm now obviously concerned that what I thought was unenforcibile is after all enforceable.

[willtheywontthey]

Wanted an opinion please on folowing scenario:

 

Both a SAR and CCA to OC some months back led to one page cca only - somewhat illegibe and the 'see next page' page missing. This led me to believe the CCA was unenforceable. I appreciate that the documents can appear at any time but wanted to know why the page seemingly has appeared now for this latest DCA?

 

More details here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/143033-cca-can-anybody-find.html

 

I will need to scan it - it is somewhat illegible but from what I can see it may indeed state the prescrbed terms etc which I thought they did not have as no other DCA or even OC provided it.

 

Am I up the creek on this one assuming cca terms all there?

[Pinky69]

They are not going anywhere with that application form no matter what they send so you have nothing to worry about.

If they send 2 different sets of T&Cs, which one is the right one? Nice try. You have nothing to worry about. I had one of these application forms and the CO-op and the DCAs are long gone - years ago.

[willtheywontthey]

thanks for your reply yet again pinky.

 

The other paper does not seem to be a reconstructed one. It has the same microfische edges, scratches and matches edges of first page. Also same dodgy legibility on both. Perhaps I should not call it t+Cs but page 2? The missing page?!

 

I will scan that up after work tonight. Inthe meantime I'm still in shock a bit that they seemingly have this with such detail in 2000? Drat if they do.

 

Guess I'll have to wait until tonight to add / get more details. I't's going to preoccupy me all day though.

 

On a more positve note the OC did terminate the account twice but deny they meant it sort of thing! I guess I will have some manovere even if cca details all there albeit illegible. (I'm learning not to panic immediately!)

[Pinky69]

It's probably written off long ago without them telling you. Mine was. I only found out after the FOS got statements I had never seen. I asked the FOS for copies of the statements. The statements were full of errors and weren't authenticated (they have to be signed by whoever took them out of the archives). The statements sent to the FOS showed the account had been written off and they didn't tell me. They clearly didn't want me to see either the statements or the fact the account had been written off. Did you get a Default Notice?

[willtheywontthey]

so here is the long-lost page 2 which appeared this week from the latest DCA.

 

It seems to look the right type of thing unfortunately?

 

If you can make out anything that's wrong with it other than slightly illegible I would appreciate it but it seems it waffles on about they'll let me know credit limit, apr, repayments etc?

 

[willtheywontthey]

thanks for advice and guidance. I've iploaded the scan onto the old link (above) but wondered if you could see if there's anything amiss with this newly-found page 2.

 

It seems to refer to the year 2000 and apr details seem to match page 1 - page references the same?

 

I think perhaps the co-op have got a ten year old enforceable one here?

 

Can anybody find anything amiss

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/143033-cca-can-anybody-find.html

 

(apologies for possible duplicate thread but the old thread forum area is a bit dead compared to here)

[willtheywontthey]

It's probably written off long ago without them telling you. Mine was. I only found out after the FOS got statements I had never seen. I asked the FOS for copies of the statements. The statements were full of errors and weren't authenticated (they have to be signed by whoever took them out of the archives). The statements sent to the FOS showed the account had been written off and they didn't tell me. They clearly didn't want me to see either the statements or the fact the account had been written off. Did you get a Default Notice?

 

I have statements from an old sar - I'll need to check signature / authentication.. do they always have to do this???

 

They sent a DN after the termination but stated they did not terminate me as they changed their minds - then they did that again I believe on more than one ocassion. They had asked for full amount prior to DN but deny this as they are stubborn.

 

They told me to leave them alone basically as equidebt were dealing with it. Only just heard back from them recently but they still owe me complaint procedure, sar etc.

 

I need time now to try and get my head around this account in more precise order. Weekend job.

 

IN the meantime would appreciate comments on the cca and latest addition to cca.

 

x