Morgan Stanley/Goldfish Cabot are now chasing advice please

[woolfysmith]

Hi Trumpet

 

Just to say I have had the same letter from Morgans, ignored it and had the court papers on the exact date to you.

 

I have CCA them and CPR 31.14 for disclosure as all it said on the court forms was the credit card account number.

 

They have replied back sending the £1 po back which is the norm for cabot and said they have to send off for the info.

 

Please feel free to contact me direct as we owe the same amounts and have had the court papers on the same day.

 

I would be interested in any idea for an actual defence if they do come up with anything or more importantly if they dont as i am sure they have defaulted us on our credit file.

 

Cabot

 

up against the wall

last fag

bop bop

[trumpetmaest]

I cca'd cabot and these are the two agreements/application forms they suggest are enforcable.

 

I have sent them letters and I have proof of all postage.

Edited September 16, 2009 by trumpetmaest

[woolfysmith]

But cant ignore the court papers as they will get default judgement.

 

What i want to know is that info you have put up on display would that shut them up if presented to the court etc.

[Pinky69]

The Morgan Stanley One is out the window - totally illegible.

 

For the loan your argument is that it is illegible and does not have the correct prescribed term for a loan amount.

[ScabHunter]

update.

 

I have just got home and received a COUNTY COURT CLAIM FORM from Morgan Solicitors on behalf of Cabot.

 

The form has an issue date of 15th September.

 

The particulars of claim state:

 

The claimant is part of the Cabot Financial Group and has purchased the debt(s) scheduled below. Despite requests for payment the defendant has failed to pay the sum of xxxxx.xx in relation to the Defendant's goldfish Bank Ltd Credit Card account number xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Liverpool Victoria Banking Services Ltd Loan number xxxxxxxxx.

And the claimant claims; the sum of xxxxxxx.xx together with interest under section 69 of the County Court Act 1984; and costs.

 

The form is in the Northampton (CCBC).

 

I would be very grateful for some help how i defend this one.

 

The LV is the agreement on here and the Goldfish one is also in another thread on CAG.

 

Can anyone help me with the wording/protocols/procedures of filing a defence and counterclaim.

 

What is the time limit. It does state that I can use moneyclaim.gov.uk but all this is baffling me:confused:

 

The first step you need to take is to acknowledge service. This buys you the time you need to put in a defence, although with a PoC like that it can only be an "embarrassed" one.

 

Crapbot are sending these claims out like confetti. All of them have identical wording, and none of them has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding if the judge is even half competent. Sadly, too many of them aren't.

 

We need to pool resources here. We need to refine and improve the standard defence and get our win rate as high as possible. This loathsome shower of leeches hasn't had a great financial year, and the more losses they take, the better.

 

SH

[trumpetmaest]

I have been reading threads now and from what I gather I need to acknowledge service. I then have to send a defence within 28 days. Is this correct?

 

I have also read in the legal section to send this by special delivery:

Dear Sir,

 

Re: Cabot Financial (UK) Limited v Trumpetmaest Case No:

 

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

 

On 16th Spetember I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreements mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was not complied with.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreements. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignments

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Trumpetmaest

 

Is this the way to go? I have also read something about an embarrassed defense because the aggreements are illegible & unenforcable. Would this be a better route?

 

Confused:confused:

Edited September 16, 2009 by trumpetmaest
typos

[andrew1]

Hi Trumpetmaest

 

Before I get into this, can you tell me, is that agreement in the post before last legible? I know you seem to have a copy there, but is the one cabot sent legible and does it include all the terms and conditions which can be read?

 

If it's illegible then you have a right to ask for a legible copy of ALL the agreement and t & C's.

 

I'm not the best to prepare court papers for you but I'm sure someone else will help you put something together. Cabot will take you to the wire and put the frighteners on you in the court lobby trying to encourage you to give up before you go in because it's a hopeless case you have - stick to your guns whatever. I'll try and rally the troops, but some cabot fan Clubbers are on holiday just now celebrating Cabots vast losses announced recently

 

I'll try and get back to you.

[ScabHunter]

I have been reading threads now and from what I gather I need to acknowledge service. I then have to send a defence within 28 days. Is this correct?

 

I have also read in the legal section to send this by special delivery:

Dear Sir,

 

Re: Cabot Financial (UK) Limited v Trumpetmaest Case No:

 

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

 

On 16th Spetember I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreements mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was not complied with.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreements. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignments

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Trumpetmaest

 

Is this the way to go? I have also read something about an embarrassed defense because the aggreements are illegible & unenforcable. Would this be a better route?

 

Confused:confused:

 

1 The first priority is to acknowledge service. That will give you 28 days to file a defence.

 

2 Yes, send the CPR 31.14 letter as you have it there. As CPR 31.14 only covers documents mentioned in the particulars of claim, you can't include the default notice. For this reason, I would send a Part 18 request as well.

 

3 Sending the CPR 31.14 letter and submitting an embarrassed defence are not mutually exclusive - far from it. The CPR letter, which Crapbot will completely ignore, is to help you craft an embarrassed defence.

 

By the way, the defence will be embarrassed not because of the agreements being illegible, but because the pathetic particulars of claim don't give you enough information to file a proper particularised defence.

 

SH

[woolfysmith]

Could someone explain whats an embarrassed defence is?

 

Also were do i get part 18 of the CPR.

 

Many Thanks

[42man]

Apart from the CPR 31.14 it might also be a good idea to send the CPR18 as you need to get them to disclose the default notice and possibly evidence that they haven't securitised the debt in Ireland or elsewhere - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/120057-cabot-test-case-2.html#post2384353 -

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

CPR 18 - REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

 

1.1 If copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

 

(a) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(b) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

© copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(d) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards

 

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

b. .Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

c. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

d. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

e. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

f. The Deed of Assignment

g. Evidence of securitisation in the UK

h. The termination

 

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

 

There is a sample of a defence here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/156156-help-mum-being-taken.html#post1665130

[ScabHunter]

Could someone explain whats an embarrassed defence is?

 

Also were do i get part 18 of the CPR.

 

Many Thanks

 

Please start your own thread as it is imperative that this one is kept clear for the OP's case now that it is subject to legal action.

 

MODS - should this be moved to Legal Issues?

 

SH

[trumpetmaest]

Hi Trumpetmaest

 

Before I get into this, can you tell me, is that agreement in the post before last legible? I know you seem to have a copy there, but is the one cabot sent legible and does it include all the terms and conditions which can be read?

 

If it's illegible then you have a right to ask for a legible copy of ALL the agreement and t & C's.

 

The agreement they sent me is not legible really. The second one is another similar agreement I found on here.

 

The T&C they sent me are on two seperate pages and they are for a goldfish card!

[up2meears]

subbing

[ScabHunter]

Trumpetmaest,

 

Have you acknowledged service yet? If not, start by doing so now. That gives you time to prepare your defence and get your CPR requests sent out.

 

We know Crapbot will default on them, but that can just be included when you challenge them at the AQ stage.

 

Please keep us informed of what you do, and be sure to ask questions if you need to. I will be watching this thread closely, and I'm sure other CAGgers will be as well.

 

We're here to help.

 

SH

[cymruambyth]

Could someone explain whats an embarrassed defence is?

 

Many Thanks

 

An embarrassed defence is a holding one that you send when you have not received any information that will enable you to put forward a defence. You finish it by requesting the court's permission to amend your defence if you receive the relevant paperwork. If you are in this position and request help someone will supply you with the correct information.

[trumpetmaest]

I have now used moneyclaim.gov.uk and completed the acknowlegement of service.

Option 1: I intend to defend all of this claim.

 

I have printed the response pack off and it is dated 18th September.

 

Please can someone advise me what I send off to Morgans.

 

Do i add 42mans to mine?

Edited September 18, 2009 by trumpetmaest
typo

[ScabHunter]

I have now used moneyclaim.gov.uk and completed the acknowlegement of service.

Option 1: I intend to defend all of this claim.

 

I have printed the response pack off and it is dated 18th September.

 

Please can someone advise me what I send off to Morgans.

 

Do i add 42mans to mine?

 

Right, now you've acknowledged service, you've got a bit of time. Not enough to waste, but certainly enough to get the right letters sent out and the appropriate defence submitted on time.

 

There are a few questions which need to be asked because we absolutely need to get this right.

 

The most obvious one is -

 

1) How does the fact that Crapbot have combined two accounts into one claim affect the defence?

 

It is easy to see why they have done this, as it saves them court fees, the question is, what is the implication for the defence?

 

How does it affect any CPR letters which need to be sent out?

 

This is a situation I have not seen before, so I will do some research. If anyone has any input, it would be welcomed.

 

I really think we need the 'big guns' in on this one before any letters get sent out.

 

I will leave it a bit to see if anyone comes in, if not, I might have to try a direct question.

 

The other obvious question, on reading the thread linked to above, is what type of defence should we be submitting here?

 

I have always used the type of defence that PT came up with - the much longer one. The one on that thread has been updated to have the confirmation that the 1974 Act is the relevant one before the rest of the case law. It does read better and is more logical.

 

x20 then comes up with a much shorter defence - only two points. The question is, would that type of defence work here, when there are two accounts, and the numbers are clearly quoted in the PoC? Even though it is still a pitiful PoC of the type Crapbot always produce.

 

As I say, two accounts on one claim is not something I have seen before, and the last thing I want to do is give out the wrong advice.

 

Crapbot seem to be going to court with anything these days, and we need to get our defences right. There will be plenty of these cases to come.

 

All feedback is welcome.

 

SH

[woolfysmith]

Please start your own thread as it is imperative that this one is kept clear for the OP's case now that it is subject to legal action.

 

MODS - should this be moved to Legal Issues?

 

SH

Apoligies, I am in the exact same position (not two debts combined) but issued with CC papers on the same day by cabot, mine are for a CC debt via MBNA they only gave an account number on the papers.

 

Have CCA them and they have requested the paperwork from MBNA, also CPR 31.14.

 

Again apoligies.

[ScabHunter]

Apoligies, I am in the exact same position (not two debts combined) but issued with CC papers on the same day by cabot, mine are for a CC debt via MBNA they only gave an account number on the papers.

 

Have CCA them and they have requested the paperwork from MBNA, also CPR 31.14.

 

Again apoligies.

 

Absolutely no need to apologise - you haven't done anything wrong. I wouldn't be the one to tell you even if you had!

 

You've made a valuable contribution to this thread, but once legal proceedings have been issued it is essential that each thread is kept on topic.

 

Have you started your own thread yet? It is just as important for you to get the correct advice as it is for trumpetmaest. We can link the two threads together so we can all help each other, but if the two cases should suddenly head in completely different directions there will be a great benefit in having two separate threads.

 

Let us know if you've got your own thread, and post a link to it if you can.

 

We're here to help.

 

SH

[woolfysmith]

I will start thread as soon as i have something meaty.

 

thankyou

[trumpetmaest]

I received two letters from Morgans like the one above lba. Each one was for different accounts. I sent lettters off twice and kept proof of postage.

[trumpetmaest]

Bump

[ScabHunter]

OK. We don't seem to be having a great deal of success trying to get the big guns involved in this, so I will just give my interpretation of it.

 

We have two problems. One is the defence, which needs to be submitted soon, but not with great urgency. The other is the CPR letter or letters, which need to be sent off urgently, as it is important that Crapbot are in default of your requests when the defence is submitted.

 

To get an idea of possible defences, we have been referred to this thread -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/156156-help-mum-being-taken.html#post1665130

 

The problem with this is that there are two totally different types of defence listed here. The defence in the first post is a "traditional" one, in the model of the defences created by pt2537 which we have used in the past. In post No. 4, x20 has given a much shorter defence which directly refutes the Particulars of Claim.

 

It has to be noted that there is one very distinct difference between the PoC in the thread which is linked to, and the one here. There are account numbers specified on this PoC.

 

There is one general principle which I think we need to bear in mind. It is a far lesser sin to put too much information in a defence than too little. If the embarrassed defence does not contain reasons for a denial, as per Section 16.5 of the CPR, then surely there is a great risk that the claimant will try to have the defence struck out. If, however, the "heavy" defence of the traditional type contains too much information, what is lost? As long as the allegations in the PoC are denied, and the claimant put to strict proof, does it matter if there are extra points of case law involved? It is not as though you are flagging to the enemy anything they don't know already.

 

If I was defending this case, and I don't think there is any doubt that I soon will be defending a very similar one, I would be looking to craft a defence along the lines of the one in the first post. Looking through the DCA Legal Successes section, I see many cases being won with this type of defence. Unless there is a good reason to depart from the proven, don't do so.

 

It also has to be remembered that x20 has a great, and possibly unequalled on this site, knowledge of the law and court process. He may well be able to put in this kind of "skinny" defence, and use it to its fullest potential. We are not in that position. We are not expert, trained litigators. We need to put in a full defence which we can feel happy in referring to, and trying to convince a judge that we fully understand the relevant case law.

 

There is also another factor here which needs to be considered. Showing the enemy that you have a full knowledge and understanding of the relevant case law may just make them back off. I know that earlier in the year I prepared a defence, and then an AQ, with the deliberate intention of showing that every possible point of law would be used in proving that no debt was legally owed. The claimant discontinued. Admittedly, that claimant was one with a history of bottling out, and I seriously doubt that Crapbot will do that. Nevertheless, I don't see any harm in hitting them early with case law that they will simply not have an answer to.

 

There is still time to prepare the defence, so any comments are welcomed. If you think I am an idiot, please say so. I am only here to try to get the most effective defence submitted in this case.

 

Now, to the CPR letters. The problem here is that I have never seen a claim form where two claims have been merged before. I do not know off hand if there is a special requirement in dealing with this situation. In the absence of specialist knowledge, here is what I would do -

 

The CPR 31.14 letter you have printed in post #25 should be sent exactly as is. Although the pitiful PoC do not directly refer to the agreements or the assignments, they are referred to indirectly. This is enough justification for a CPR 31.14 request.

 

The CPR 18 letter which 42man has provided should be sent off exactly as is. As 42man so correctly points out, we need to see the default notices, and as they are not mentioned or even referred to in the PoC, we can't use CPR 31.14 to get them. Evidence of securitization is another interesting matter, but there is no time to go into that here.

 

I would personally send the CPR 31.14 on one day, and then the CPR 18 the next, for no other reason to give them greater distinction. You will need to report Crapbot's non-compliance as part of your defence. Get the letters off tomorrow and the next day, if you can.

 

Please note, these are only my opinions, and I am no expert. If anybody else has any input, it would be most welcome.

 

SH

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

My advice is to PM those forum contributers you feel could help, and include a link to your thread

Edited September 30, 2009 by old_andrew2007
spelling

[cymruambyth]

Hi I'm a few months ahead of you. THe following link takes you to my defence.

Just to warn you I then ask loads of questions that didn't change the defence and often confuse things:confused:. I hope it can be of help. I'm now at the AQ stage. I have also followed BeauBrummie's thread which helped alot.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/153641-monument-cabot-8.html Page 8 post 155.

Good luck