Inside a DCA!

[onthebrink]

What sort of duty is this? It's not a statutory duty, because CRAs are just private companies.

 

Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme have a duty to provide the CRA with any information that '...would be of benefit to other CAIS members in determining credit facilities'.

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Rory has alluded above to the need for their to be a contractual requirement for charges to be added. Additionally, the OFT Guidance requires:

 

- that there is contractual provision for collection charges to be added

 

- that an indication of the actual amount of the charges must be contained in the contract

 

- that the charges must be based on actual and necessary costs

 

- that the charges must not be disproportionate to the main debt

 

So, whilst in some cases it may be legal for a DCA to add charges, as consumer credit licence holders they are obliged to comply with the OFT Guidance.

 

I agree. Within the contract between the DCA and the OC there will be provision for the DCA to add 'reasonable' charges (notice how that word keeps appearing), however, any such provision should be contained within either the original agreement that the debtor signed OR within the T&Cs that were provided at the time credit was obtained. I cannot remember the exact wording but it is normally in the same paragraph where they set out how they will share your information with 'other agencies'. If there is no such provision regarding 'additional charges' then there is no basis to allow the DCA to add charges.

 

Just to be clear, a DCA CANNOT add charges if the OC cannot prove YOU the debtor agreed to be bound by such 'terms & conditions'.

 

HINT:

If a DCA is adding charges or fees to your account, write a letter to the OC requesting information regarding the assignment of such a 'right' and request written proof that you agreed to be bound by such terms.

 

If the DCA has purchased the debt from the OC, send the letter to the DCA direct requesting on what legislative grounds they believe they can add charges or fees to the account.

[onthebrink]

Hi OTB & thank you for all the wonderful info! Just finished reading!! Phew.

Anyway, I've already come to terms that i'm Bankrupt! Reason being that i think this?..Cos i haven't made contact with anybody for 18 months..still counting..very silly of me perhaps , but i thought it was a wiser choice than

1. 'killing myself to live'

2. chucking myself under a train...

believe it or not these are 2 very different ideas but they both suck..though they sound similar.

 

Naturally my debts have snowballed via charges etc. Of course i will begin to recover some and make my way to recovery asap unless i'm bankrupt!. But without a bank account or proper address (homeless), how i'm i to start this slog? O.k enough said, too many issues.

 

Back to the thread quote, I'm interested bankruptcy topic when you have the time! I've been living like one for more than a year so i can't see what difference it's gonna make to my lifestyle. I don't have any assets, don't need a mortgage. Let's face it, who would want to get credit again when it's the very thing that gets you into trouble??????

Isn't CREDIT doublespeak for DEBT? Now remember that ppl, when you are watching those Orwellian Debt adverts that promise to help you when they offer CREDIT, Remember they're offering to get you more into DEBT!!....I find this a disturbing tactic! But hey! it works! ....

 

Thank you for reading my late night rant.:grin:

 

Jaws

 

 

 

Bankruptcy is a very complex area and really needs it's own chapter. So as soon as I can I'll put it on the list of things to do.

 

Just a couple of quick points though.

 

It costs money to go bankrupt (although if you got a credit card you can always take it from there just before submitting you petition )

 

It takes time to go bankrupt (some courts need weeks of notice just to submit your petition) and the forms can be a bit complex and require a few hours of digging up paperwork.

 

Your will need to have had professional advice as the judge will ask and will NOT process the petition if you haven't received any (Most people contact the CCCS and they are a good starting point)

 

Bankruptcy is not just about wiping out your debts, it does cause other problems that few bankrupts realise before hand:

 

The Official Receiver (OR) will freeze ALL your accounts (bank, savings, ISA, off shore accounts , etc) and if you haven't planned the first 4 weeks after submitting you petition, you could find life getting a lot worse before it gets better.

 

The OR will appoint 'an examiner' to audit all your accounts looking at Income and expenditure for up to 3 years and they can go back much longer if required. They will need to provide the Creditors with a 'creditors report' that should support your version of 'reason for bankruptcy'. This is generally agreed to be the most stressful part, and is often coupled with a number of interviews either with the OR or the examiner.

 

However, if you plan the bankruptcy and have enough cash in hand to pay the bills, etc. until the OR allows you to use your basic account (you can open a basic account with the co-op the day you are declared bankrupt - but you MUST notify them of you bankruptcy, it won't be a problem though), then you should be OK. But my advice is....don't do it on the spur of the moment

[onthebrink]

Sorry brink but I have to take you task on this.

 

The CRA's can sign all the agreements they like but if the data subject is not involved then any such agreement is open to challenge in the courts

 

Also the CRA's seem to have adopted an arrogant attitude that they are some sort of statutory body - they are not - they are private companies subject, like the rrest of us, to all the laws of the land

 

I think you read my original post incorrectly. I was not taliking about 'lawful' in the way that you thought.

 

What I said was accurate when you read it in the context that this does not refer to YOU, but to the CRAs/DCA/OC:

 

Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme have a duty to provide the CRA with any information that '...would be of benefit to other CAIS members in determining credit facilities'.

 

I have highlighted a key point there.

 

I was talking from a CRA/DCA/OC point of view. The CRAs (all three of them) have contractual agreements with each other, so as someone said it is very much an old boys network.

 

I'm going to have to state a fact that may offend a few of you but it does need to be said. The CRA/DCA/OCs do not give a t*ss about the 'consumer', the 'debtor' or the 'borrower', they agree to sign up to an information sharing scheme to help each other by highlighting 'risk' clients or customers. And to be honest, their attitude is not to rectify 'an error' it is to keep to their 'lawful' contract agreement within this network to ensure that they reduce their own risk by gaining information from other companies.

 

I'm not saying it's fair, or right, and I'm not saying it is 'legal' in a court of law (i.e you could challenge them with case or statutory law for example), but it is a reality.

[onthebrink]

Hi all,

 

I have jumped in and out this week but haven't had time to put together a long response.

 

Sorry for that.

 

I've had a right nightmare at work with the auditors. Bean counters, who needs them . You would think they would be happy I made my company a six figure investment profit, but no, they needed 100% accountability on every investment. Grrrrrrr.

 

Anyway, I was asked by someone if it would be a good idea to put their house into Trust to prevent a charging order. . I must say it did make me smile and I think a quick response is required. I'll get a cup of tea and be back.

[onthebrink]

OK. Putting your house/assets into Trust does not in the majority of cases protect it from your creditors. Particularly if you still live in it. And in the worse case the creditor is likely to bypass a CCJ and petition for bankruptcy knowing the living Trust will be seized as an asset and sold. Also, setting up a living Trust fund is costly and requires an adminstration exercise that would make your eyes water (particularly the submissions to HMRC), which is not something the majority reading this can afford or be likely to undertake. If you are thinking about attempting this then you really need to seek professional advice (clearly not stating, 'i want to protect my house from my creditors' can you help set up a Trust fund for my dog).

[onthebrink]

welcome back OTB and sorry to here about your fun with the auditors.

 

Could you also look into my question and answer it when u have 5 minutes. Ment to ay post number 425.

 

I'll have a look now

[onthebrink]

Just a question.

 

Why do DCAs sent you a letter saying we are taking u to court in 7 days unless you make immediate payment when this is there first contact?

 

I have just recieved on of these letters for a debt that is at a address that does not and never existed due to there not being enought numbers on the street i live on, there were 50 houses and they say it is for number 1,312.

 

This debt also dates back to 2000 to 2001 and it is defently SB. they are also claiming it belongs to a company that we had no contact with at the time. They are claiming for Npower and gas and we only had txu electric as there was electric at the property and we were not allowed to change suppliers as it was in our tenancy.

 

This is a shot in the dark. The debt is an old one and they have no information (they have most likely bought it for 2p in the £) and so they jump to the end of the debt cycle (court action with no further reference to you stuff) in order to gain a response and payment .

 

Quick, get you cheque book out.

 

Just send them back a standard 'prove I owe it with the evidence you will use in court' letter, and be prepared for a couple more nasty 'we play hard ball' letters.

 

These type of DCAs (bottom of the pile) work on a hard line fast payment approach and rarely bother with court action. However, they do tend to send a 'visitor' to get you to pay. Tie them up in legalities of debt ownership and they will be gone.

[onthebrink]

Hello m8 nice you see you back

 

 

Sorry to answer PMs here, but if you asked then I'm sure someone else needs to know.

 

Why do DCAs pass my debt on?

 

Basically because they have run the debt cycle and the chance of recovery is nil. As I said in an earlier post, they are working on % of debtors and turnover of accounts. If the supervisor has determined they won't get paid it will be passed on.

 

 

If I move address can the OC/DCA find me?

Not if you move to the moon. . At some point in the future your going to go looking for debt again (sorry credit ), and they link you with two key pieces of information - you date of birth and you place of birth (the chances of two joe bloggs born in Hackney on the 25 Feb 1905 is rare!), your address is only the first port of call.

 

DCAs have a number of routes to find you -

 

Spoof websites offering credit (you get rejected but they have the info)

Mobile phone contracts

HP agreements

Mortgage applications.

On-line marketing surveys

Electoral register

[onthebrink]

Fascinating reading, the whole series !

 

So, on the assumption that DCA sends the account off to a.n.o, usually after a CCA request or similar and therefore default of this, to DCA1, subsequent DCA's are trying it on?

 

I wouldn't say 'trying it on' but it does raise the question, 'why didn't they take me to court to get a CCJ?'

 

Sometimes, a DCA will pass it to another DCA because they know that what the debtor is offering as a payment (say £5 month) will be accepted by the court if they went for a CCJ, but that £5 doesn't cover the cost of adminstration of the said CCJ. In this case the debt is passed on as 'uneconomical to pursue'.

[onthebrink]

OTB when you mentioned the DCA's various means of finding debtors in post 487 you forgot to mention the offer by the CRA's of cheap or even free credit reports

 

Agreed. But to be fair the list is endless.

 

They can also find out through 'financial associations'.

[onthebrink]

If a supervisor decides they aren't going to get paid , what makes subsequent dca's think they are going to get paid instead ? If you have gone through the cycle on dca (a) with no result, surely dca(b) can only go through the same cycle with a similar no payment made either and therefore a waste of time and money buying it from dca (a) ?

There is nothing dca(b) can do that dca(a) hasn't already tried. In the end it just becomes a game ? There is no payment made , no real end result, just a lot of time effort and money wasted and a small hit on the rain forest population in cycling it around the dca's.

 

ALL DCAs have an arrogance that makes them believe they are better than the rest, and their 'methods' and staff are more capable than the rest. When they get a 'new' account they actually believe they will succeed where others have failed

[onthebrink]

Hi Onthebrink. Welcome back, and I've been away too so, just catching up on everything. Hey...Have you thought of doing a Martin Lewis and starting your own website? I'm not saying for one minute that you should pull away from this site...god forbid ! But, it seems like the obvious next step for you OTB?...Just an idea...From little acorns etc...

 

Thanks for the thought, but i just LOVE it here ;-)

[onthebrink]

If this is true then this is a disgrace, can you name and shame a few for us so we can give them the Cabot Fan Club treatment? - Don't know what that is? - ask Ken Maynard

 

Sarah

 

 

cus4loans.co.uk

 

their not even subtle:

 

 

'Cus4Loans.co.uk is a website operated by The Slice Ltd. The Slice Ltd is licensed under the Data Protection Acts. Registered Company Number: 02860905 Registered Office : 25 Ormside Way, Redhill, Surrey. RH1 2LW. Data Protection Number: Z8414369

The Slice is a marketing and IT systems organisation and does not offer any financial advice. Think carefully before taking out a loan.'

 

Give it a try, you'll be lucky to get a response

[onthebrink]

They maybe a 'media & marketing' organisation but they SELL DATA to financial institutions.

[onthebrink]

My companies Data Protection Officer said to me a while back, 'onthebrink, we don't live in a world where privacy means anything anymore, and where our data has a monetary value. Big business pay big bucks for data.'

 

Before submitting ANY data about yourself look and the T&Cs of the website, you may find it asks if you want to receive marketing info but won't detail what they do with your data, just that they will 'use it'. ALWAYS look for a 'privacy' policy and if its missing walk away.

[onthebrink]

You are all just to kind.

 

A humbled

 

Onthebrink.

[onthebrink]

Hi all,

 

Just got in from work so no time to respond to questions but I will tomorrow.

 

I do have good cover although I did get a PM from someone I worked with but decided it best not to respond!!!!! He knows who he is .

 

Remember....it's good to talk.

[onthebrink]

Ah! But did he do it on purpose or is he undercover, or is he a shameful debtor like the rest of us????!!!

 

I look forward to your response OTB!

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Corn x:)

 

DCA staff, past present and future have access to the internet and google makes the world a much smaller place.

[onthebrink]

Oh god, I'm so sorry...

 

No worries. I have given a detailed response in my PM.

[onthebrink]

NO NO! Don't apologise! I didn't mean to scare you!!

 

I just thought that as this thread was about the workings of debt collection agencies, it might be better, under the circumstances, for you to have a whole thread to yourself regarding Mary's issues! New threads tend to get a lot of attention!

 

If you need any help with that, then please do let me know!

 

A hug for scaring you.....

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

 

Group HUG

[onthebrink]

Congratulation to OTB for a truly amazing and useful thread. I hope you have good cover!

 

I have a couple of questions though :

 

I liked this question because it really got me thinking!

 

How do you deal with an DCA and their solicitors when you have spent 16 months trying to communicate with them and they have never answered a single, solitary letter and have ignored your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and your CCA requests? I am talking around 26 letters in fact, which have all been received and signed for.

 

How do you deal with a DCA who has filed a claim, despite all the above) at county court (a claim that will be fast-tracked due to the size) despite the OC admitting that they converted documents unconnected to the "debtor" in an attempt to concoct an enforceable agreement? Oh and put all the wrong information on it, at that!

Basically because they 'think' they have the legal edge (your just a debtor, what do you know? yes, it's called arrogance ). They must have a valid CCA with all the prescribed terms (or what they percieve to be a valid CCA ) and they must believe they can enforce the debt. But I'm confident you have your defence prepared.

 

I am more surprised that the Solicitor for the DCA is extremely well known and "high end" yet they can't respond to letters? Why is that? Further, why they have advised their "client" to litigate is beyond me. Will they withdraw after my defence is submitted? What do you think OTB???

I don't think they will withdraw, what is more likely to happen is the district Judge will give them a deadline to provide you with the information you request in your defence. If they have that info (CCA, etc.) then most likely they will supply it (I mean they have to because the judge won't proceed without compliance), if they don't have that supporting evidence the claim will be thrown out and you SUE them.

 

 

I have, thankfully, been able to afford a Barrister (on a time spent and reduced fee basis) to represent me in Court. I ought to say that the reason for this is that in my experience, the Judge does not appreciate a Litigant in Person, however, their tune is very much changed when a Barrister comes into play. That is just from being an observer in Court. I wouldn't put myself through it after that! Sorry that is slightly off topic but was touched on earlier in the thread.

I agree. There is nothing better to get a DCA/OCs attention than have a solicitor on YOUR side. A good solicitor can really be an excellent investment. Judges prefer to deal with legally qualified staff to be honest, mainly because they don't have a lot of time and need everyone to quickly understand what her dertermination is without explaining it. That is not to say you have to get a solicitor, but it helps. So does going to court prepared.

 

Regards,

 

 

Corn x:)

 

Why they haven't complied with your CCA and SAR still confuses me tbh (scratches head). There is no reason not to.

[onthebrink]

I have absolutely no idea, really, not a clue. I have sent two CCA requests, one 16-odd months ago and one about a year later. I have also S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d them twice. Nothing. I have proof of postage and receipt. I have tried very hard to engage in dialogue, but they have completely and utterly ignored me.

 

I have an excellent defence (I believe!) and I will PM to tell you why as the matter is subject to litigation and I would prefer not to post on a public forum.

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

 

Yea that's fine.

 

There appears to be no logic to their ignorance, and that's why I had to mull it over in work today, and the only 'excuse' I thought of was if the debt was less than £1k, then it would be 'uneconmical' to engage in legal conversation with you. But that attitude always fails in court.

[onthebrink]

I was going to do a 'chapter' on strategies that work, but there is still an arguement in my mind as to whether its a good idea!

 

I always stated that I would give honest independent advice not tainted by 'morals' or 'emotion', and not underpinned by justifying or not, as the case maybe, the job of the DCA. I would tell it as the DCA/OCs see it, so you could at least understand the 'process'.

 

BUT, by giving strategies that will help, will move me away from the 'independence' I have and may compromise the advice I provide in future. Is jumping off the fench the right thing to do? Something to mull over I suppose.

[onthebrink]

You could always start with 'strategies that don't work' , leaving us to work out the ones that do;)

 

Quality