DCA chasing English CC debt in France

[kev100]

Ok, this is how I see it with the help from dannyboy and others in this thread and other reading I have done.

 

Obviously this is all IMHO.

 

Firstly I cannot see how a foreign court can proceed with any action that is in the jurisdiction of another country, if this is the case then all lawyers, solicitors, legal reps and the courts would have to know the legal requirements and practices and regulations (and have these enforced) of virtually every country (or every country that subscribes to a cross border agreement), and every countries legal systems would have to be hugely overhauled to allow for foreign regulations, I think this is improbable

 

I DO see that a foreign court could act upon a judgement by a court in another country (EEO) in respect that the judgement in the country of jurisdiction is legal by that country's laws and courts, so therefore I would suspect that a foreign court can basically enforce that court order (assuming a cross border agreement has been made) , UNLESS, and this is the cruncher, and has been mentioned before, the court order is contested, in this instance the foreign court could not pursue due to the points I made in the first paragraph, and the case then reverts back to the country of jurisdiction for the case to be fought.

 

We do know that an EEO can only be enforced with a CCJ from the country of jurisdiction, that CCJ has to already be existing, or just been made.

 

We do know that there is an agreement in Europe for cross border action, or European Order for Payment (EOP)

 

We do know that the UK will only enter this arrangement in Dec 2008 (unless something has, or will change to alter this date)

 

and we do know that an EOP is unenforceable if the court order is contested, i.e. it will revert back to the country of jurisdiction.

 

So as I see it Intrium Justitia has no legal right to pursue any legal activities unless a CCJ exists in the country of juridiction in which case they can do it with an EEO, alternatively they can take action without a CCJ after Dec 2008 (assuming that the UK have entered into the EOP), but if you contest the action then the case will be reverted back to the UK.

 

Intrium Justitia can however try to harass and get you to pay by the usual bullying techniques, but they have no legal means to collect anything from you.

 

As I say this is all IMHO, having read between the lines, I could be totally incorrect so danyboy maybe you could put you 2 penny worth in ..

 

The one point that I am unsure about (because I have seen no text to back this up) is that if a CCJ does not already exist, can a UK court use an old previous address (in my case 5 years old) to obtain the CCJ, surely obtaining the CCJ at an address that belongs to somebody else would effect the people who live there in some way (i.e. being harassed by DCA's) and thus effect some "legal" rights that the new owners of the property have.

[dannyboy660]

Generally speaking, I think we are broadly in agreement the way things stand at the moment, but remember I am not an expert.

 

Judgment by default at your previous UK address is a possibility, but worthless because it has not followed the necessary procedures of EU 1348/2000 for service of documents. It's only likely to affect you if you return to the UK.

 

Phew, complicated stuff !!!!

 

Why the sudden rise in EU and overseas posts, is everybody leaving the sinking ship ????

[gerona]

 

Why the sudden rise in EU and overseas posts, is everybody leaving the sinking ship ????

 

The sea is blue, the sun is shinning, beer and wine are cheap - I don't feel quite as poor here(lol)

[kev100]

The sea is blue, the sun is shinning, beer and wine are cheap - I don't feel quite as poor here(lol)

 

Exactly

 

I think over 350,000 UK residents left the UK last year for the sun sea and the cheap alcohol of foreign parts

 

I also think that there may also be a few more people in the future with similar problems to us so its a good topic to gather info on (Ok I am being a little biased here) ..

 

I think Dannyboy is becoming the resident "overseas" advisor :) ..

[gerona]

I think we are all getting addicted to this forum, I can't get on with anything;)

[dannyboy660]

You may have already found this yourself by now, but just in case you missed it http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2002:0746:FIN:EN:PDF

 

 

A very interesting read. I'll post it on the "jurisdiction" thread as well because I'm sure it will be useful to others in the future. Notice how some countries will put a ceiling on the amount that can be claimed. This is a valid argument if the claimant is using a currency other than Euros

[kev100]

Cheers Dannyboy,

 

Will have a read, Well today was the date that I should have responded to the last letter they sent, so I guess I will be getting another one in the next few days,

 

Anybody want a sweepstake as to the contents ...

[kev100]

I did notice within the first few sentences, that special word "uncontested" is mentioned again.

 

So I believe that in any cross border case as long as I contest any claim (with a valid reason i.e. illegal charges and interest) then it will revert back to the UK courts, So I believe that while I still live outside the UK then they are unable to touch me by using a foreign legal system.

 

Still reading though ....

[ODC]

Cheers Dannyboy,

 

Will have a read, Well today was the date that I should have responded to the last letter they sent, so I guess I will be getting another one in the next few days,

 

Anybody want a sweepstake as to the contents ...

It will be from their so called solicitors HL Legal and maybe a Doorstep letter from Snotcall:rolleyes:

[kev100]

It will be from their so called solicitors HL Legal and maybe a Doorstep letter from Snotcall:rolleyes:

 

 

Be great to get a doorstop letter in France...

 

I will have to check, but I think I am well within my rights to shoot somebody trespassing on my property in France .. better dust off the 12 bore ...

 

Goto love those old Napoleonic laws ...

[kev100]

It will be from their so called solicitors HL Legal

 

Already had the HL Legal letter .. that was the last one threatening court action ..

[ODC]

Ah well its Snotcall next then or the ubiquitous Mr P Edwards who will be visiting you on Tuesday between 8-00am and 9pm

[kev100]

Ah well its Snotcall next then or the ubiquitous Mr P Edwards who will be visiting you on Tuesday between 8-00am and 9pm

 

Bring it on Mr P Edwards

 

How do you think he will react if I open the door and shove a 12 bore up his nose ...

[dannyboy660]

A bit more info regarding the ceiling thing.

 

It seems the original creditor can pursue you for the full amount, and in most cases the ceiling would not apply if they have done things 'by the book', and have the paperwork to prove it. They must have taken all steps to reach an amicable agreement, and must accept any reasonable offer of repayment either in full, or part.

 

A third party however, like a DCA or Purchaser, in most Countries will be affected by the ceiling (if one exists). You probably noticed that in some places they are limited to just a couple of K (Euros). This, I am told, is to dissuade creditors from ditching their bad debts too quickly and claiming tax relief, throwing you to the wolves etc. It also means there is often very little profit to be made from buying bad debt and then bullying people. Creditors are therefore far more careful about who they lend unsecured money to, and people who find themselves in poo creek without a paddle are protected from the parasitic element of the financial sector, because the court is aware the debt was bought for a tiny fraction of it's face value........One of the great stumbling blocks for UK acceptance of the regulations, as they obviously make huge amounts of money from debt. I'm sure you get the picture.

 

I'm also informed that there are few EU States nowadays where it is not possible to take recovery action of some sort. That's the bad news, but the good news is they would have to employ lawyers in the State where the credit was granted and contract signed, and the State of the debtors residency, and then they battle it out. It is an extremely long, expensive process and rarely (if ever) used for unsecured consumer debt on a basic contract. So, all in all, I think we're probably right to say to you are on safe ground.

 

It seems Napoleon may not have been so bad after all ......at least we had Wellington to keep us poor and oppressed on behalf of the aristocracy....

[gerona]

Good morning dannyboy660

Thank-you for finding this information out. Hopefully I'll be safe over here in Spain.

There aren't any CCJ's on any of the debts and now I've been on this forum I know to fight against them no matter what.

[dannyboy660]

Good morning dannyboy660

Thank-you for finding this information out. Hopefully I'll be safe over here in Spain.

There aren't any CCJ's on any of the debts and now I've been on this forum I know to fight against them no matter what.

 

That's excellent news.

 

I'm glad you don't already have CCJ's because that could have been a major obstacle further down the line.

 

all the best....and go get 'em

[gerona]

It's all very complicated for me to understand but if I get anybody harrassing me my 1st action will be to post on the forum rather than admitting everything - which is what I have done in the past!

[ODC]

A good policy. Do not rely on a DCA to tell the truth.

[dannyboy660]

A good policy. Do not rely on a DCA to tell the truth.

 

I'll second that.

 

It's not in the interests of a DCA/Purchaser to tell you the truth, so CAG should be the first port of call.

[kev100]

Dannyboy,

 

Can I just say thank you for your hard work in explaining in brief the document you found in your earlier post ...

 

All looks good I think, and just waiting now for the next letter ...

 

I should get in the next couple days I think so get ready for a laugh ...

 

Gerona .. sit tight, I think we are in the same boat so lets see what happens ..

[gerona]

 

Gerona .. sit tight, I think we are in the same boat so lets see what happens ..

 

Thanks kev100

I have learnt so much from this forum and I only found it about a month ago.

In the past I would do whatever they wanted - I've agreed to voluntary charges, admitted full amounts on CCJ claims, spoke to them on the phone.

I think most people have no idea of their rights and feel guilty because they're in debt, can't afford a solicitor and just agree to everything. Because of this forum I have started the process of claiming all the unlawful charges back.

I can't believe it's taken me 5 years to get here:shock:

[kev100]

I have been here the same amount of time as you and learned alot also ..

 

do you mind if I ask how much in charges you are claiming back, or what percentage of the total are you claiming back ?.. just interested because I am sure that £4k out of £9k in my case are extra charges and interest ..

[gerona]

Sorry kev but I don't know yet. I've only just sent off for the information. I know that there'lll be alot of charges - but once I have all the information then it will give me a clearer idea of which way to proceed.

[dannyboy660]

Can I just say thank you for your hard work in explaining in brief the document you found in your earlier post ...

 

Actually, I went through a very similar thing several years ago......even up to the brink of trying to make myself bankrupt in UK whilst wandering around in Europe, so I picked up a bit of how things work. The fact I had 'residency' in several States (through my work), and had been away for more than three years, made it impossible and the whole thing just ended up in limbo......until I returned to UK.

 

Things are changing all the time, as you now know, but I still take an interest in all this stuff.

 

Best wishes to you, and gerona. I'm sure you'll be fine with a bit of help from the CAGggers.

[gerona]

Actually, I went through a very similar thing several years ago......

 

Best wishes to you, and gerona. I'm sure you'll be fine with a bit of help from the CAGggers.

 

I'll need a lot of help;) and thanks you for your help. Because of your experiences you are able to help us. I for one don't talk to anybody about my situation.