Rundle and Co Pub - LO for Non-Domestic rates (business rates)

[webbscatering]

Hi People,

what gives with these bailiff,

I have a pub and they have just entered my pub and levied the goods,

I have spoke to the bailiff on the phone as the manager gave him my mobile number and he told me I got five days to pay £1600 or the goods will be removed.

I asked why was i not informed that we was at this stage!

he promptly replied that you would have been notified by his office,

which I know i have not as in the past when we get a letter from a bailiffs office I always make good offers of payment.

So what can I do....some sound advice muchly appreciated

[Guest 10110001]

If the goods are tools of trade, perishable stock, or devices that make money for the business - e.g. a pool table or a gambling machine, then thay cant take them. Bailiffs can take your tables and chairs so long as your customers still have somewhere to sit and does not interfere with the financial performance of your business. Bailiffs aren't interested in furniture anyway, but if your pub is in need of new for old furniture then you have now have an opportunuty to do it on the bailiffs liability insurer.

 

If you have not been given notice that bailiffs have been instructed then its lilkely they didnt write to you. Just tell them you have not received their letter and Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 can do the rest and you can get the matter back with the council.

 

Ask the bailiff how much fees he is charging you and ask the authority how much they say they owe you. If Tomtubby (on this forum) finds the bailiff has defrauded you in fees then then pay the bailiff the whole amount with a credit card (don't day anything to the bailiff) then revoke the transaction under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act using the grounds that the bailiff obtained a money transfer by deception. The bailiff loses all his fees, and you can just pay the authority the agreed amount.

 

Its dirty but its the law.

[webbscatering]

Very interesting what you wrote,

now i have been in this position before with regards to the same bailiff because its a pub he just walks right in and out as this is not classed as forced entry.

So what can i do stop him from taking my car and my goods when i need to keep the pub trading.

They have not sent me any warning letters but I feel its their word against mine so kind of lost on what to do there.

There would be no point in phoning them as they will obviously say we sent them even if its true or not, so no need to waste my breath on that one.

Now the CAB have said I can go back to the issuing court that granted the liability order and try to get the warrant stopped but where do I start on this one with just 5 days to go.

[Guest 10110001]

Bailiffs cant break & enter unless he is collecting for HMRC, or has previously entered the premises relating to the same order.

Bailiffs cannot take goods that will interfere with the performance of your business or take tools of your trade.

If they do then you can replace them with new ones, bot only if 2nd hand goods of similar value are not immediately available to enable you to continue business uninterrupted.

You then bill the authority - not the bailiff - for the cost of replacing those goods.

The authority is liable for its bailiffs, and the authority claims from the bailiffs liability insurer.

Tell the authority and the bailiff you have not received any letter, by telling them this in writing, the burden of proof passes to the bailiff. Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978.

If thats the CAB's advice then they should have explained this. Is this council tax? a parking ticket?

If this were me, I would just phone the bailiff and pay with a credit card whatever he wants, the whole £1600.

Afterwards, check his fees, check he is certificated, check the Firm is licensed for consumer credit and check the fees are prescribed.

If he had defrauds you then you can get all your money back with a Section 75.

Phone your credit card company for a chargeback form and you will laugh last.

[webbscatering]

Hi 10110001,

its Non-Domestic rates (business rates), but it seems there is a separate laws from domestic or this is how they are putting it. They are certificated bailiffs, but nothing else noted apart from a company number and the VAT number. But I have another pub down the road and he came to that one and levied my vehicles... thats strange even in my eyes.

 

Bailiffs cannot take goods that will interfere with the performace of your business or take tools of your trade. If they do then you can replace them with new ones, bot only if 2nd hand goods of similar value are not immediately available to enable you to continue business uninterrupted. You then bill the authority - not the bailiff - for the cost of replacing those goods. The authority is liable for its bailiffs, and the authority claims from the bailiffs liability insurer.

 

Hi 10110001,

This is very interesting where did you find this from?

[PizzaMaker]

Is the fine (Business Rates or Parking) in your name or in the name of the pub?

 

If its your name then any vehicles belonging to you can be seized.

 

As its a pub and if related to NDR rates (Business Rates) they will normally only give you a short period to pay as they will presume you can pay promoptly.

 

With regards to good, you pool table, video machines will normally be on hire/lease agreement. The tables, chairs and possibly drinks unopened can be leived upon. Do you have any personal effect hanging on walls, e.g. photos signed, football shirts, etc.

 

Are you leaseholder or freeholder?

[webbscatering]

Hi Pizza Maker,

the liability order is in my name, I have no personal effects and its a leasehold

[PizzaMaker]

So the goods in the pub do not belong to you?

 

Effects in pub such as TV's etc do not belong to you?

 

Thinks best to PM you.

[webbscatering]

Hi Pizzamaker,

sorry for the slight confusion, I own the Fixtures & Fittings, tables, chairs, kitchen equipment and all things that form the basis of my business, what is not mine is basically anything that is not structural.

[Guest 10110001]

Then only the business is liable,

The pub will (usually) be wrapped into a Ltd company and you cannot be held personally liable.

The legislation that handles non-domestic rates is called the Part 5 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

Did you check they are properly certificated?

phone the public register of bailiffs on 0207 210 0516.

While youre at it, check they hold a Category C and Category E consumer credit license.

The OFT says its a criminal offence to trade in debt recovery without a Category E consumer credit license.

Its a criminal offence under Section 39(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to trade unlicensed.

A crime number adds weight, call the Consumer Credit public register 020 7211 8608 and press 1 to search register

Did you sign a walking possessions agreement?

Have the vehicles been clamped?

are they needed for your business?

are they yours?

Im not au fait on this type of levy without a walking possession agreement

. I hope someone else can advise.

Distress for Rent Rules 1988

The authority being liable for its bailiffs is a legal precedent.

There is no contract between you and the bailiff.

The contract is between bailiff and the authority.

Any damages incurred by you (e.g. by being defrauded by a bailiff) are claimed against authority,

then authority and its bailiffs settle their deference's between themselves.

[webbscatering]

Amazing Stuff 10110001,

it has certainly given me a better insight to the mechanics of these bully boys,

maybe their mothers never loved them!!!!

I will chat with you tomorrow maybe, Cheers Kev

With the help of Tomtubby,

a letter is now winging its way to Rundle and Co,

and trust me its a kick butt letter.

I will keep you posted with more events as it happens

[webbscatering]

Hi Tomtubby and Friends,

through sound advice from reliable sources of mine as of 11am 18th December 2007 I was officially made Bankrupt,

this is not a bad thing as it has saved me 80k which I could have been charged for breaches in contract.

So onto business "Walk In Possession Order" issued for the 18th December 2007.

After I sent the letter from Tomtubby the Bailiff still turned up and wanted to remove my possessions, he phoned my mobile and I explained I no longer owned the business as I was made bankrupt yesterday and he could do what he likes.

He said he had received the letter from Tomtubby and it was Wrong and did'nt apply to him as he was certified to work in England and said we should have looked at the small print......what small print?.

After a call to the council office they accepted I was broke and called off the wolves,

after I said about Tomtubby's letter they too said it didn't apply as this was for "Distress of Rent" and not for council tax???.

To be honest I do not know what to believe!

but I did tape the conversation to the council as i know full well they are useless.

Pity I didn't tape the bailiff as he went mental at me spat dummy and hung up twice,

he demanded I go and open the premises to let him in so he can take the goods out??

even though he did say the auction van was en route and also the locksmith!!

[Guest 10110001]

If you have been declared bankrupt and you entered your debts (which the bailiff is calling about) on the Form 6.28 Statement of Affairs, then the bailiff should contact the official receiver. Call the receiver and let him know you have had bailiffs call, and he'll decide if the bailiff is entitled access to your goods.

 

If the bailiff is threatening to take goods belonging to your business and you listed them on Section 2 of Form 6.28 (your assets), then you must phone the Official Receiver immediately and hand the phone to the bailiff. The goods do not belong to you until they have been released back to you by the receiver. Neither you or a bailiff can dispose of goods listed on Form 6.28.

 

Bailiffs cannot use a locksmith to enter the premises through a locked door, its breaking and entering (burglary, if done during hours of darkness), you should inform police.

 

Debts that are not nullified by bankruptcy are criminal fines and child support.

[webbscatering]

101, good comments made there, I feel also there was something in the letter by Tomtubby because this Bailiff is a cool customer mild in approach and methodical. Something upset him today because he was swearing at me down the phone, also why ask me to let him in the pub...basically they will lie to get what they want and deal with the consequences after. So severe was his threats we actually hid our cars!!!

[Guest 10110001]

So severe was his threats we actually hid our cars!!!

 

How severe? You might have a criminal element to the case.

[webbscatering]

He said what about your house, I said what about it? he said he will go round there and levy goods there. So we had to warn my 13 year old son to be on the look out and if need be call the Police. He was angry and abusive but I dont think he threatened me though, but did make things worse as i was calling him gay and a faggot ....not choice words really.

[sillygirl1]

He can't levy on your house and the contents as the debt was for your business, he clearly is on a losing streak and needs to save face somewhere along the line. If he does turn up at home call the police immediately and report a robbery in progress.

[Guest 10110001]

He said what about your house, I said what about it? he said he will go round there and levy goods there. So we had to warn my 13 year old son to be on the look out and if need be call the Police. He was angry and abusive but I dont think he threatened me though, but did make things worse as i was calling him gay and a faggot ....not choice words really.

 

It looks like he is trying to work outside the scope of his legal powers.

 

Ask him straight - what court certificated him - then tell him you will file a complaint for exceeding his power of authority by trying to levy on his private house for a business debt.

 

Also, remind him he is committing a criminal offence of demanding money with menaces, an offence under the Theft Act 1968.

 

That might shut him up and make him go away. This is looking like a nulla bona case.

[sillygirl1]

Its also an offence under the Fraud Act too... can't remember which year but might be 2006.

 

Might be worth reporting to the Bailiffs association on the relevant form too

[Guest 10110001]

Its also an offence under the Fraud Act too... can't remember which year but might be 2006.

 

Its Section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006, but in a criminal trial it carries a harder burden of proof, so the CPS will more likely charge a suspect under Section 15A(1) of the Theft Act 1968.

 

Might be worth reporting to the Bailiffs association on the relevant form too.

 

Don't waste your breath.

 

1. Their subscriptions/income come from bailiffs

2. They are on the bailiffs side

3. They have no legal authority

4. They are just quasi-regulators

5. They cannot award you compensation

6. They can't get your money back

 

Complain to the court.

[webbscatering]

thanks for that sillygirl1,

He lost that one and without a doubt we will call the Police should he come around the house.

Quite funny really because we hid our two BMW's both worth about 6K each one with my private plate on it worth 2k as he levied them plus all the kitchen equipment and all the restaurant furniture (about 15 tables and 58 chairs) and stocks for a £1260 debt. A bit over zealous I think.

How do I start this process with regard to complaining, even though I have no evidence just my word over his.

[Saffronflowers]

Daft question - Why not sell the numberplate and be rid of the debt! It seems that you are trying as many tricks as you can not to pay your NDR but living beyond your means or that the income you are earning can pay the most basic of bills.

 

I am very well aware of the case that 1011100010 had that led him to the charge back - however it was very different to yours. I think that you should pay the monies owed and then SAR them and fight to get back what you feel and probably is unjust.

 

I would also be very careful of lisiting your assets on this forum as many Bailiff Comapanies do trawl these sites.

 

SFx

[webbscatering]

Ok Saffron Flowers, not fair to judge without the facts first,

But let me explain.

THe council issue the new NDR to start payments from 1st April payments are broken down so you can pay by monthly payments mine were £450 per month.

OK its fair to say missed a couple of payments but caught up again not before the liability order was given.

Now the debt to be collected by Mr Bailiff was £1260, my payments up to 30th March would have been for arguments sake i missed Decembers payment would have been £1350.

Why the bailiff visit?

Who set the wolves on me because the council will not admit they did.

Now did I live beyond my means for missing a few payments but caught up?

[Guest 10110001]

he levied them plus all the kitchen equipment and all the restaurant furniture (about 15 tables and 58 chairs) and stocks for a £1260 debt. A bit over zealous I think.

 

The bailiff is playing games, He cant even sell that kind of gear on ebay let alone an auction.

 

Phone him on his mobile and ask him straight, which court certificated him, when he tells you, end the call with a pleasantary thank you.

 

Write to the court with a form of witness statement, and ask the court manager to place it in front of a judge. Be factual and brief, include any evidence to support your claim.

 

That should gert the debt back with the council, then you must pay them. At least this might get you off the bailiffs fees.

[Saffronflowers]

I would have to say yes - The right to pay by instalments is revoked by non payment be it for two or three months - therefore the whole amount become liable - hence the Liability Order, it would also seem to me that the monies are still outstanding, I only take this from what has been posted on this thread. Is the outstanding NDR been put aside bar the Bailiff fees?

No wolves were set upon you it just becomes flagged up on the computer system and then their procedures are followed. The problem being that you fell foul of the system where the right to instalments were revoked due to the NDR not being paid for several months. We can argue till the pints come home whether this is correct or not but that is the system.

The council find using Bailiffs an extremely cost effective way of removing both CT and NDR, and thus they are unconcerned about the whys and wherefores.

I would forewarn you that unless you want a long and extremely stressful battle that you negotiate to pay what you can from now until March and bear in mind that you will be then Liable for next years NDR.

In conclusion what I am trying to say

- is you are liable, you will be liable for next years and too complicate the issue with chargebacks etc is not necessarily the correct route to go.

I am not saying that what they have charged you is necessarily correct or that they have dealt with you in a professional manner nor you with them but this does need to be sorted even if you do not like the way that is the most efficacious.

 

Sf