Anyone heard of repossession angels

[heckmondwike06]

Hi

 

Has anyone heard of repossession angels? Apparently they buy homes for people facing repossession and then rent it back to people and claim to be ethical evangelists (you know where I am going with this). I am not sure how ethical they're and worried that they don't start kicking people out of their homes once they've purchased them.

 

More importantly I did some research on them and their brain Glenn Armstrong is some property entreprenuer and all they're interested in bringing onboard more of so called angels and then charge them £2,500 joining fees which includes 2 days course with Glenn. Looks like they're trying to flog me a course followed by £100 per month for lead generations (marketing) and 1.25% for all successful completion as their referral fees. When you google term 'repossession' they're nowhere to be seen so how could they be advertising? More importantly how do I do know what sort of leads are coming in as I will have no visibility of these whatsoever, they can pass it on to their own elite members!!!

 

More googling brought me to their own forum singingpig.co.uk which has a link to repossession angels and it boasts about how good they're and promise to make one rich within 1 year. This sounds too good to be true, but is it?

 

Has anyone dealt with them in past as someone willing to sell their home / join them as an angel and if so, what was your experience like?

 

I welcome your comments / feedback.

 

Thanks,

[MrShed]

What specifically are you wanting to know? Seems fairly straightforward to me - a typical "below value" company.

[MARTIN3030]

Welcome to the site.Try this.

Repossession Process - Stop House Repossession

[heckmondwike06]

Hi Mr. Shed,

 

What I want to know is why they charge £2500 for joining up and then £100 per month for life?

 

Also, if anyone has experience of dealing with them? I have read somewhere on internet that they keep all their leads to their regional managers as angels have no visibility of any leads coming in. I read a lot of newpapers and travel all over the country but never have I come across their brand!

[MrShed]

If that is the charge and then you keep all profit from each sale you do, then sounds like a great deal to me...

[MrShed]

My suggestion would be if you are concerned that the £2500 and £100 pm would be better invested in doing it yourself...

[heckmondwike06]

I am wondering what the £2500 would include, and also if someone has any experience dealing with these people or been on the training course.

[MrShed]

Sorry Im not meaning to be intentionally unhelpful!

 

However, if I was going to invest £2500 of my hard earned cash with a company, as soon as I heard ONE bad thing, I would not do so - and you have heard one bad thing. To be honest, buying BMV is not difficult, and you will probably be just as successful doing it by yourself.

[Joa]

Struggling homeowners warned to beware 'rent-back' deals | the Daily Mail

[antlyons]

As the General Manager for Repossession Angels I suggest you contact myself or one of my colleagues if you want to find out more about what we do. You can call myself on (EDIT)

With regard to the posting from Joa perhaps you would like to contact myself regarding the work we are doing to bring regulation to the sell and rent back industry.

[MrShed]

Would it not be better to post that work here in the public domain for all to see?

[Joa]

Ant, I will be very happy to chat to you via this forum, because I am not clear how companies like yours would make profit without buying cheap and renting back high. But then I am no business brains of the year! This forum would be an excellent medium as it is read by hundreds of people with interest in such issues.

[jonni2bad]

Would it not be better to post that work here in the public domain for all to see?

 

Just thought that deserved a repeat

[Lula]

I received something very interesting this morning from Motley Fool about buy and rent back companies

 

A Dangerous Way To Get Out Of Debt - 11/01/2008

 

You're in debt up to your eyeballs. You've lost your job, the mortgage lender is threatening to repossess your home and you're worried you and your family may soon be homeless. Then along comes what seems like a fantastic solution: a firm offers you the chance to sell your home -- and rent it back.

It's a bit like suddenly being told you can have your cake and eat it. OK, so you have to sell your home, but that means you can pay off all your debts and, most importantly, you don't have to move. You'll be able to continue to live there as a tenant, paying rent that is often less than you were paying for your mortgage.

According to Property Rescue, one of the companies offering ‘sell and rent back' schemes, this allows you to "maintain stability" in your life and your children's lives. "It's a win-win situation!" they claim on their website. Another company, National Property Buyers, is even more upbeat, emphasising such a scheme means "you can stay in your home with total peace of mind".

If warning signs aren't flashing up on the screen as you're reading this, they should be, according to housing charity Shelter. Together with the Council of Mortgage Lenders and the Citizens Advice Bureau, it recently called on the Government to introduce regulation to better protect the consumer from ‘sell and rent back' companies.

Why? What's wrong with these schemes?

Here's a quick summary of Shelter's argument:

1. The purchase of the property is usually at a vastly discounted rate - typically losing out on 15% of the market value of their property. This ‘market value' may be a valuation placed on the property by the company buying it, rather than an independent surveyor acting on the seller's behalf.

2. The lease back to the customer is usually on an Assured Shorthold Tenancy (AST), which affords little security of tenure to the tenant. Many ASTs last for just six to 12 months. In other words, after that, there is nothing to stop the company from evicting the tenant from the property.

3. While assurances on National Property Buyers' website that "your home cannot be repossessed by your building society or mortgage company" are technically correct, this is only because you no longer have a building society or mortgage company. Should the sell-and-rent-back company go bust, the company's mortgage lender can repossess the property and evict you.

What's more, Shelter claim the way in which some schemes are advertised is potentially misleading, arguing that some companies give the impression the customer will be able to stay in their home for as long as they wish.

Put to the test

 

To put Shelter's argument to the test, we tried to find out what different companies say to their clients. But it was difficult to find a company that was willing to comment: National Property Buyers would not even tell The Fool the name of its director.

Property Rescue, however, was willing to talk to us, so we asked its director, Danny Niberg, what information is given to clients about its schemes.

He admitted:

• The main way the company makes its money is by selling off the properties it has bought.
  
• Clients are only offered a 12-month AST and have no legal right to reside in the property beyond this date.
  

Yet:

• Clients are told they are welcome to stay in the property as long as they wish.
  

He doesn't see this as a contradiction because he claims the firm likes long-term tenants. If so, why not offer ASTs to tenants that last longer than 12 months? That would provide long-term security to tenants, as it would mean the firm could not evict them if, for example, they wanted to sell the property.

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is: once your AST runs out, there is nothing to stop a landlord from legally evicting you.

Fool research!

 

Some companies were unwilling to speak to us, so we went undercover to try and get some answers.

We asked: If I were to sell my property to you, how long would I be able to stay there for?

National Property Buyers

Answer: "As long as you wanted, if you kept up with the rent payments."

Maximum-length AST contract available: Six months.

National Homebuyers

Answer: "We don't have a maximum period... you could stay there for the foreseeable future, that should be fine."

Maximum-length AST contract available: Three years.

Property Rescue

We also thought we'd do an undercover test on this company to see if potential clients are given the same information as director Danny Niberg told us. We were told:

"You can stay in the property for an unlimited time period."

Maximum-length AST contract available: 12 months.

The way forward

 

One of the biggest players in this market, A Quick Sale, openly claims on its website: "You can sell your house, and then rent it back from us for as long as you need to."

But when we asked director Glenn Ackroyd how long tenants can actually legally stay in the property for, he said: "We will only offer ASTs up to a maximum of 12 months, to comply with the terms set by mortgage lenders."

But he claims that, if tenants want to stay in the property long-term, A Quick Sale is often prepared to sign a further ‘tenancy guarantee' agreement with them, stating its intention to continuously renew the AST for a set period.

"If we fail to comply with this agreement, we will offer them a fixed compensation of 5% (or £5,000, whichever is the greater) of the property value. They may also be able to go to a trade body we are helping to set up, to get further compensation."

However, this trade body has not yet been officially launched, and therefore it is difficult to know how much protection it will give. Furthermore, it will not be an independent, public regulator like the Financial Services Authority, which regulates the mortgage industry, ensuring that any information given to borrowers is "fair, clear and not misleading". In my opinion, a similar level of regulation of ‘sell and rent back' schemes would be greatly beneficial.

Desperate times

 

It's true that, for many mortgage borrowers facing repossession, the risk that their tenancy agreement may not be renewed could be one they are willing to take - especially as, in today's market, their repossessed property may not be sold for their full market value by their mortgage lender anyway.

What I object to is the amount of contradictory information, as highlighted by our undercover report. Since most of the homeowners who consider these schemes are at their most financially vulnerable, I am concerned some people may be agreeing to sell their home below its market value because they believe they will have a legal right to stay in their homes for as long as they wish.

That's why here at The Fool, we are calling for regulation of these schemes. Vulnerable homeowners should be protected by legislation which ensures they are able to make an informed choice and fully understand the risks involved, just the way they would with a mortgage or an equity release scheme.

With sub-prime mortgage companies tightening lending criteria and repossessions set to increase dramatically next year, it's high time the Government woke up to the potential dangers of these schemes and took action to better protect vulnerable homeowners.

[antlyons]

ok here is the brief outline how sell and rent back works.

As a general rule an angel can pay approx 80% of the market value of the property. We use the equity that somebody has in their property as our buy to let deposit.

 

so lets use the example below (a real deal I completed on in December).

Homeowners owed £73,000 on property valued at £100,000.

Debt repayment on mortgage + secured loan was costing them £930 per month as they had a poor credit history.

I purchased their property For £80,000 and mortgaged to 85% of the value = £85,000 (the £5000 difference between my mortgage and the purchase price covered the cost of purchase, 2 sets of solicitors costs broker fee etc).

These people are now my tennants paying rental of £475 per month.

My mortgage payment + buildings ins are approx £400 per month so I make £75 per month profit.

 

The vendors had decided that they would foresake some of the equity to stay in property and are now £455 per month better off which makes a huge difference to them.

 

The reason that we cannot offer lifetime tennancy agreements are that mortgage lenders do not permit it. The maximum we can use is a 12 month ast but I always put in writing that as long as the rent is paid they can stay there indefinitely.

Anybody who is in this business for the long term should understand the importance of win:win deals. If dojng the deal does not put the vendor in a better financial position each month then we should not do it.

We also have experienced brokers and debt management specialists who we often refer vendors to if they have not already explored these options.

 

My experience so far !15 months into running the company and purchasiing properties that I rent back to the former owner) is that my customers are extremely grateful that we can save them from the alternative which is often getting repossessed).

 

I am not saying that everybody in this market operates the way we do but we are one of the companies pushing for regulation and legislation in order to remove the unexperienced and unethical investors from the market.

 

I hope this helps you all understand that yes there are unscrupulous operators in this market so if anybody is thinking about selling and renting back they do so with an understanding of how it works.

[Joa]

Ant; thanks very much. I think that as long as businesses like yours are totally upfront and clear about the way they operate- people can make informed decisions. The problem lies with companies which, in order to secure the deal, are not honest with their customers, i.e. "yeah, you can stay there forever" etc. I think that's what needs to be regulated; so companies are obliged by law to give detailed information and make sure that crucial terms are highlighted.

[21stcentury]

Hi,

 

I have to add that i have been doing rent backs for approx 7years now and, have came up against people like the CAB and Shelter advising consumers to let their house be repossessed. I feel that is very bad advice, I also feel that we offer a very worthwhile service that is suitable for some people but not all. I speak for a few investors and we are veryt likeminded in our approach to buisness, we like long term tenants. They look after the property as if it were their own, and pay their rent on time. Please remember that every year the tenant is in the property the value of the said property increases in value. This is what we are looking for.

 

I also pass deals onto other investors that i cant always manage and I know that they have the same morals and ethics as myself. We as a company completed on 162 last year. Thnat means that we helped 162 familys stay in their home and sort out their finances.

 

I think it takes alot to come onto a public forum and lat your service out to be scrutinised by the world, so antlyons, I aplaud you and thank your for your upfront and honest approach.

[MrShed]

I wholly agree, and I for one appreciate Anthony( and indeed yourself) coming on here, bearing all, and clarifying many points on the matter.

[Robertxc]

ok here is the brief outline how sell and rent back works.

As a general rule an angel can pay approx 80% of the market value of the property. We use the equity that somebody has in their property as our buy to let deposit.

 

so lets use the example below (a real deal I completed on in December).

Homeowners owed £73,000 on property valued at £100,000.

Debt repayment on mortgage + secured loan was costing them £930 per month as they had a poor credit history.

I purchased their property For £80,000 and mortgaged to 85% of the value = £85,000 (the £5000 difference between my mortgage and the purchase price covered the cost of purchase, 2 sets of solicitors costs broker fee etc).

These people are now my tennants paying rental of £475 per month.

My mortgage payment + buildings ins are approx £400 per month so I make £75 per month profit.

 

The vendors had decided that they would foresake some of the equity to stay in property and are now £455 per month better off which makes a huge difference to them.

 

The reason that we cannot offer lifetime tennancy agreements are that mortgage lenders do not permit it. The maximum we can use is a 12 month ast but I always put in writing that as long as the rent is paid they can stay there indefinitely.

Anybody who is in this business for the long term should understand the importance of win:win deals. If dojng the deal does not put the vendor in a better financial position each month then we should not do it.

We also have experienced brokers and debt management specialists who we often refer vendors to if they have not already explored these options.

 

My experience so far !15 months into running the company and purchasiing properties that I rent back to the former owner) is that my customers are extremely grateful that we can save them from the alternative which is often getting repossessed).

 

I am not saying that everybody in this market operates the way we do but we are one of the companies pushing for regulation and legislation in order to remove the unexperienced and unethical investors from the market.

 

I hope this helps you all understand that yes there are unscrupulous operators in this market so if anybody is thinking about selling and renting back they do so with an understanding of how it works.

I can well appreciate how a service such as yours would be welcome for people who are especially attached to their home. Do you give them the opportunity to buy their house back at a future date? I would have thought that the option to buy back at full market value after a certain number of years would be very attractive.

[antlyons]

the answer to the buy back option is yes, where appropriate I have offered buy back options to my rent back tennants. I purchased one property in November for £198,000 that valued at £255,000 and the tennants have the option to purchase back at £235,000 in either 2 or 4 years (the point at which my mortgage is due for renewal) irresppective of how much the property has increased in value.

I only do this where appropriate as a number of my clients are older and perhaps nearing retirement where they will be looking for support from housing benefit to pay the rent.

 

It is a ridiculous situation that they are not entitled to this support if they own the property.

Anthony

[21stcentury]

I am slightly different to yourself Anthony, i offer the rentback at the end of 5years for 90% of the current market value which is set by a RICS surveyor.

 

Again with reference to tenants looking to buyback, I have alot of tenants that ask about it, but very few that actually carry out the purchase. There is lots of people who for whatever reason prefer to be tenants, no nasty bills, if something goes wrong then they call the landlord and he/she fixes it. My feeling is that the industry has to be regulated and hopefully will be within the next few years, there are lots of people out there that are taking advantage of the vunerable ones, putting them on a 6month tenancy, then kicking them out to sell on for full market value.

 

I hope people can understand the service that is provided by people like ourselves and should they be in the unfortunate position to possibly have to sell and rent back, then check out your investor very carefully. Ask them for current tenants details? Current rent back tenants? Then you call and talk to them and ask them about the investor. Remember he will own your home, you have to trust him to want to keep the property long term.

[antlyons]

I have had a couple of meetings with the treasury and FSA and regulation will happen but probably it will take 2 years or so (nothing appears to move rapidly in govt circles).

 

I doubt those tennants that have asked for a buy back option will ever exercise it for the reasons you mentioned. Some people are more suited to being tennants as it restricts the amount of money they can borrow if they don't own the property.

 

The trust aspect is key to it and I have walked away from many deals as I didn't trust the vendor to pay the rent. As you say its a long term relationship.

 

I now get referrals from some of my rent back tennants and am happy to chat to anybody on the phone to use my experience to put them in a better position. After all I want to sleep at night and don't need money badly enough to take the unethical approach that we both know some investors take.

 

Bring on legislation and get rid of the sharks!, in my experience most newcomers to the industry lack the experience and integrity to stay for the long term.

 

Whereabouts are you based 21st century? perhaps we can pass on leads?

 

Ant