ScotsJamie v Halifax

[ScotsJamie]

Hi everyone. i have recently discovered this site as I am currently trying to recover £1926 from Halifax since June 2001.

 

This is my story so far.........

27th April 2006 - Data protection letter sent (without any fee for account which was closed in 2004)

 

23rd May 2006 - response received with list of charges applied with 14 month window missing!!! telephoned and assured missing months would be forwarded.

 

26th May 2006 - initial letter sent requesting a refund which is as follows,

 

Customer Relations

HALIFAX PLC

PO Box 548

Leeds

LS1 1WU

Dear Sir/madam

Penalty & unfair charges – request for refund for

[MR ScotsJamie, SORT CODE *******, ACCOUNT NUMBER ******* - Roll No. ********]

I write in complaint of a number of unfair charges which were applied to my account during the past 5 years. I had been a Halifax customer since **** when I attended University in *. During a period of financial difficulty towards the end of my University course, my account fell into arrears and charges began being applied to my account on a regular basis. The account has since been closed following my repayment of all the applied charges and arranged overdraft on the account.

Following legal advice, I requested a list of all charges applied to my account in the past 5 years and recently received a response from **********, Customer Services in the form of a letter dated 23rd May 2006. This document enclosed the requested list of charges which I have reproduced below. Unfortunately details of charges applied between February 2002 and March 2003 were omitted. I am currently awaiting details of the charges for the omitted period.

The following is a comprehensive summary of the unfair charges I am aware of,

***list of charges in chronological order including amount, date, reason***

 

0n 5 April 2006 the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) announced that default charges which are set at more than £12 will be presumed to be unfair and unenforceable in terms of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). Charges above this sum will be subject to legal action by the OFT (press release 68/06 - online here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/News/Press+releases/2006/68-06.htm).

I would respectfully submit that if your organisation does not agree to immediately refund all unfair charges applied to my account, it will not meet the ‘fit and proper person’ test to hold a consumer credit licence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In that eventuality, I will submit a 1974 Act complaint to the OFT.

On a separate note, I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore irrecoverable at common law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498 the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79.

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss, instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50 - online here: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmtreasy/274/27405.htm).

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of the bank’s loss in relation to my account. Your charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

Please refund me these charges in addition to any and all charges applied between February 2002 and March 2003 within 14 days of the date of this letter. I reserve the right to commence court proceedings without further notice, and to seek an additional award for distress and inconvenience, together with legal expenses.

Yours faithfully

 

ScotsJamie

 

 

30th May 2006 - Reply received - "....sorry to hear you have found cause for complaint...etc etc.......you will receive a reply shortly...no later than 4 weeks.."

31st May 2006 (one DAY later!) further letter received - "....Thank you for your recent letter, I tried to telephone you to discuss your complaint (when? no missed calls!?)...I'm sure you will appreciate that like other organisations we incur costs for every transaction made. When we pay an item against an unauthorised overdraft or return an item unpaid, we incur extra costs regardless of the shortfall involved. We believe it is fair to pass these costs on to the accounts affected, rather than absorb them into other areas of our operations, penalising all our other customers as a result............ We clearly outline our charging Policy in the terms and conditions that apply to your account........................However as a gesture of goodwill i am prepared to refund £138.00 of charges in full and final settlement (is that a joke?)"

3rd June 2006 - I telephoned the complaints dept to refuse the offer. I was told, "Okay, so you dont want to accept that offer?, that's okay, that is just a an initial offer! We can now offer you a second offer which is the total of the busiest 6 months of charges on your account...which is....please hold............£400 approximately (no it isnt, its over £600! - where did she get that figure from??) I obviously refuse the offer and am assured that that is a full and final 'gesture of goodwill' and I will not get anymore.....UNLESS (she says) you make a complaint to the ombudsman or file a court claim (good idea)

6th June 2006 - Letter received - "Thank you for your recent telephne call..........I offered to refund six months worth of charges to your account, which you refused to accept. Please understand that we are not prepared to refund all of the charges that you have incurred on your account over the last six years/since your account was opened....

8th June 2006 - LBA sent - no reply

18th June 2006 - Further LBA sent as they claimed not to have received first one.

22nd June 2006 - Telephoned complaints department as no further correspondance received. They stated that as I had been given the address for the ombudsman, That was the end of their involvement as far as they were concerned. I asked if i would get a reply to me two letters. I was basically told no...tell someone who cares!

AT present, I have just filled in and printed off my first small claim for £708 plus expenses and interest. I will need to get it to the local court soon so i dont miss out on the charge from 30th June 2001 (£84).......Wish me luck! I havent a clue what i am doing....

 

[ScotsJamie]

Hi everyone. i have recently discovered this site as I am currently trying to recover £1926 from Halifax since June 2001.

 

This is my story so far.........

27th April 2006 - Data protection letter sent (without any fee for account which was closed in 2004)

 

23rd May 2006 - response received with list of charges applied with 14 month window missing!!! telephoned and assured missing months would be forwarded.

 

26th May 2006 - initial letter sent requesting a refund which is as follows,

 

Customer Relations

HALIFAX PLC

PO Box 548

Leeds

LS1 1WU

Dear Sir/madam

Penalty & unfair charges – request for refund for

[MR ScotsJamie, SORT CODE *******, ACCOUNT NUMBER ******* - Roll No. ********]

I write in complaint of a number of unfair charges which were applied to my account during the past 5 years. I had been a Halifax customer since **** when I attended University in *. During a period of financial difficulty towards the end of my University course, my account fell into arrears and charges began being applied to my account on a regular basis. The account has since been closed following my repayment of all the applied charges and arranged overdraft on the account.

Following legal advice, I requested a list of all charges applied to my account in the past 5 years and recently received a response from **********, Customer Services in the form of a letter dated 23rd May 2006. This document enclosed the requested list of charges which I have reproduced below. Unfortunately details of charges applied between February 2002 and March 2003 were omitted. I am currently awaiting details of the charges for the omitted period.

The following is a comprehensive summary of the unfair charges I am aware of,

***list of charges in chronological order including amount, date, reason***

0n 5 April 2006 the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) announced that default charges which are set at more than £12 will be presumed to be unfair and unenforceable in terms of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). Charges above this sum will be subject to legal action by the OFT (press release 68/06 - online here: Current credit card default charges unfair).

I would respectfully submit that if your organisation does not agree to immediately refund all unfair charges applied to my account, it will not meet the ‘fit and proper person’ test to hold a consumer credit licence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In that eventuality, I will submit a 1974 Act complaint to the OFT.

On a separate note, I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore irrecoverable at common law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498 the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79.

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss, instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50 - online here: House of Commons - Treasury - Second Report).

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of the bank’s loss in relation to my account. Your charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

Please refund me these charges in addition to any and all charges applied between February 2002 and March 2003 within 14 days of the date of this letter. I reserve the right to commence court proceedings without further notice, and to seek an additional award for distress and inconvenience, together with legal expenses.

Yours faithfully

ScotsJamie

 

30th May 2006 - Reply received - "....sorry to hear you have found cause for complaint...etc etc.......you will receive a reply shortly...no later than 4 weeks.."

 

31st May 2006 (one DAY later!) further letter received - "....Thank you for your recent letter, I tried to telephone you to discuss your complaint (when? no missed calls!?)...I'm sure you will appreciate that like other organisations we incur costs for every transaction made. When we pay an item against an unauthorised overdraft or return an item unpaid, we incur extra costs regardless of the shortfall involved. We believe it is fair to pass these costs on to the accounts affected, rather than absorb them into other areas of our operations, penalising all our other customers as a result............ We clearly outline our charging Policy in the terms and conditions that apply to your account........................However as a gesture of goodwill i am prepared to refund £138.00 of charges in full and final settlement (is that a joke?)"

 

3rd June 2006 - I telephoned the complaints dept to refuse the offer. I was told, "Okay, so you dont want to accept that offer?, that's okay, that is just a an initial offer! We can now offer you a second offer which is the total of the busiest 6 months of charges on your account...which is....please hold............£400 approximately (no it isnt, its over £600! - where did she get that figure from??) I obviously refuse the offer and am assured that that is a full and final 'gesture of goodwill' and I will not get anymore.....UNLESS (she says) you make a complaint to the ombudsman or file a court claim (good idea)

 

6th June 2006 - Letter received - "Thank you for your recent telephne call..........I offered to refund six months worth of charges to your account, which you refused to accept. Please understand that we are not prepared to refund all of the charges that you have incurred on your account over the last six years/since your account was opened....

 

8th June 2006 - LBA sent - no reply

 

18th June 2006 - Further LBA sent as they claimed not to have received first one.

22nd June 2006 - Telephoned complaints department as no further correspondance received. They stated that as I had been given the address for the ombudsman, That was the end of their involvement as far as they were concerned. I asked if i would get a reply to me two letters. I was basically told no...tell someone who cares!

 

AT present, I have just filled in and printed off my first small claim for £708 plus expenses and interest. I will need to get it to the local court soon so i dont miss out on the charge from 30th June 2001 (£84).......Wish me luck! I havent a clue what i am doing....

 

 

[thewifeandI]

Good luck in your claim - it sounds like the usual saga (left hand, right hand). Just stick with it and have a good read through the Halifax threads and read up on this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/guidance-notes/ and the FAQs. It took 8 days from claim to repayment into my account in my case, you're on the home stretch!

[ScotsJamie]

Well that's reassuring, thanks! I would like to think that the case will settle before I get to the courtroom, however it would be just my luck to end up arguing my case in court. I dont mind, so long as I get my money back. i'm pretty determined, having read all the other success stories and points of advice. this site is marvellous!

[thewifeandI]

The time to settle varies from case to case, so don't rely on my case as an indication for when you can expect payment. I just gave it as an example.

[Mairi]

Hi ScotsJamie,

Welcolme, i will be following your posts with interest.

Im off to court soon too.

mairi

[ScotsJamie]

I`m on night shift and wanted to submit my paperwork to the court today but I'm too late. Court Closed. I'll do it tomorrow! I'm coming for my money, Halifax!

[ScotsJamie]

Can anyone confirm the halifax address I should use for the 'Defender' on my summons? I have put down

 

Halifax PLC

Trinity Road

Halifax

HX1 2RG

 

Is that the address you used 'ThewifeandI'?

[thewifeandI]

Yup - that'll do!

[ScotsJamie]

Handed the summons and £39 cheque to the court this morning. The clerk took Form 1b, statement of claim and list of charges. I was handed form 1a back as it 'wasnt needed'. Is this normal?

[ScotsJamie]

I submitted by papers to the court this morning. Target date is August 14th! I am a bit confused though as I got the Form 1a handed back to me and the clerk only kept the form 1b, statement of claim and list of charges. Is that normal????

[fruitycar]

form 1a is used if you are claiming against an individual and form 1b for claims against a company.

[ScotsJamie]

Ok>>> Ive made some enquiries at the court and the MOST helpful staff have cleared up the ambiguity.

 

Form 1a is for claims against an individual

WHEREAS

Form 1b is for claims against a company!

 

I will wailt patiently for a letter saying that the Halifax want to defend.

[ScotsJamie]

Thanks Fruitycar, I just found that out when I phoned the court.

[ScotsJamie]

Does anyone know how long I can expect to wait to hear whether the Halifax intend to defend? - the swines!

[thewifeandI]

It took about a week in my case.

[ScotsJamie]

Hmmm... I hope its a week for me.. The sooner the better.... I'm dancing around the house like a thing possessed waiting for something to happen. Checking for emails all the time, 'missed calls' on mobile, mailbox, online bank balances. I'm on a mission! I've already decided that the first claim is going to pay off my credit card..... I havent decided what i'll do with the rest of the money yet :grin: .

[troublegum]

I'll be watching this thread with interest as I am also going to be claiming a similar amount from the Halifax (still at DPA request stage and don't have final figure yet but have total of £1131 so far) and am also based in Scotland.

 

At the moment I'm not quite sure how to go about splitting the claim up into

 

When you sent the initial letter and the LBA, did you ask them for the full amount at that point then only claim

 

 

Do the courts actually allow you to make multiple small claims, one after the other?

[ScotsJamie]

In my initial letters I asked for the full amount to be refunded. I then got a measly offer and sent a further letter which was basically an LBA, again requesting the full amount or court action would be taken.

THEN, I went back 5 years and starting from June 30th 2001 added up EVERY charge over £12 on my account and put them into a table on MS Excel in date order until the total reached just under £750. This was June 2001 to December 2002 in my statements.

Then I completed Form 1b and the statement of claim for £704 (+ 8% interest +£39 fee)and a list of my charges and took it down to the court with my £39 cheque and lodged it yesterday.

Once I get my money, i will start adding up charges from December 2002 until they reach just under £750 and will submit a second claim.

It is important to claim one chunk at a time as if you submit 2 or more at the same time, the bank may request that they are joined together and this will take it out of the small claims procedure and into Summary procedure which you do not want as the bank is more likely to challenge you in court and may charge you for expenses if you lose.

[thewifeandI]

Just to be clear here - there is no '£12 limit' on reclaimable charges. ANY charge that has been applied for the recovery of 'costs' associated with payments stopped, payments made when insufficient funds, or 'over the limit' monthly charges CAN be reclaimed.

 

Ignore the OFT statement, the banks are ignoring it for the purposes of bank accounts anyway. What that says is that will deem any of these charges in excess of £12 as automatically being unfair, but not that charges below that value are automatically fair - and it only applies strictly to credit cards so far.

[ScotsJamie]

Thanks. I know that all charges can be claimed, HOWEVER in my case I am personally interested in pursuing only charges over £12. My claim was spurred on by the OFT report on credit card charges and I wish to keep my claim as watertight as possible . If I dispute ALL charges including charges under £12 then I increase the liklihood of the bank defending the case in court.

[thewifeandI]

The bank won't dispute charges of less than £12 in court, at least not until they come down to under £1.50 anyway. If they want to take you to court they will have to reveal the true costs which are so small that most of them come to a matter of a few pence. Stopping a DD/Cheque is the biggy, at approx £1.20 according an inside source. All the others are purely a case of the 'Computer says no...' and involve a microsecond of processing time to reject. If you get statements and letters online, there's nothing to add, otherwise there's 15-20p for the printing, envelope and (bulk rate) postage.

 

It is entirely your choice though - please don't feel pressured.

[ScotsJamie]

On closer inspection, i dont have any charges less than £28:eek: .

When I get paid for my first claim, is it okay for me to go ahead and file another claim at the court or should I recontact the bank and give them another opportunity to settle before Court?

[thewifeandI]

Now that IS a question that I don't remember seeing an answer to - one for the Mods or a Scottish specialist?

[ScotsJamie]

How do I highlight that question for attention of a mod?? I've heard about 'bumping' but have no idea what it is.