An idea - any comments from mods and others?

[jansus]

In view of the sucess in the Alliance and leicester forum with the assistance of the FOS - I was wondering that as the courts seem in most cases to have their hands tied in respect of stays would it be worth drafting a letter so that even those with court cases pending could attempt the "two pronged attack"

 

Attached is a draft suggestion to which the claimants could obviously attach their own details of their situation. I understand from the court case this week that the judges are saying the hardship must be caused by the bank charges and it is not just a case of those who feel that they are in a genuine hardship case that will succeed - although this does not seem to be bourne out entirely by the advice that the case on A&L thread received or the banking code.

 

As the FSA have asked for specific evidence of cases where the banks are not conforming to the basis of the agreement for the waiver I was wondering if people were willing to copy their letters to the banks and the FOS and the FSA copies could be sent to a mod and passed on to the FSA?

 

Just for comments Please

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To XXXXbank

 

 

From XXXXX

Reference account number XXXXXXX

Dear sir / madam

 

I refer to previous correspondence on the above account and wish to draw to your attention a condition of the waiver of claims regarding Overdraft charges . This is an extract from:

FSA waiver statement 27/7/2007 & Memo to Treasury select committee 9/10/2007

“Consumers can still complain about new charges incurred.

Consumers who have received a final response from the bank/building society which does not include an offer

Consumers still have the option of complaining to FOS. However, the banks and building societies have also requested that the FOS does not consider any complaints about unauthorised overdraft charges until resolution of the test case.

Consumers who are in very difficult financial circumstances - 'hardship cases'

Banks and building societies will have to conduct a filtering process to ensure that cases of genuine hardship are still dealt with during the waiver period. Cases of hardship would still be entitled to be referred to, and dealt with by, the FOS.

Consumers who want to complain to the bank/building society about other issues

Consumers can continue to use the existing complaints process to seek redress about other financial matters, such as insurance, mortgages and current accounts. However, if their complaint relates to the level, fairness or unlawfulness of unauthorised overdraft charges, that element of the complaint will be registered but not dealt with.”

Also as I am sure you are aware the banking code requirement for banks to deal with persons in financial difficulty sympathetically and positively has not been affected by the waiver.

 

 

 

I feel there is nothing to be gained at this point from questioning the level of charges applied; my position is merely that the agreement reached between the banks, FSA, FOS and OFT prior to the OFT v banks case being submitted to the High Court at the end of July clearly states that responsibility for determining and resolving a ‘hardship case’ lies with the bank, that the waiver granted to banks, allowing complaints re charges to be held pending the outcome of the High Court case does not apply to ‘hardship’ cases, and banks should therefore seek to identify and resolve such cases; further that where agreement cannot be reached between a customer and a bank the bank must issue a final response letter as a precursor to the FOS seeking to resolve matters.

 

My further position is that I firmly believe it will be possible for you to address my concerns such that I deem the matter settled negating any need for involvement of the FOS or closer to home the continued involvement of the Chief Executives office.

 

 

I am therefore (again) identifying myself to you to one of the cases where the excessive charges have been a cause or have worsened my present position . I (again)attach a summary of my present position for your consideration. As my case has now been in progress for XXXX weeks I would expect a response within 14 days.

I am sending a copy of this letter to the FSA and The FOS .If you are unwilling to consider my request then you are under obligation to provide me with a written response indicating that you do not consider my case to be one of financial hardship and the reasons why together with your specific criteria on which you are basing your refusal I will then consider my next course of action in consultation with the FOS/FSA

I would point out there has been considerable correspondence and phone calls concerning this matter before – and I regret having to bring this to your attention again ( attach any written copies)

The fact that I have commenced legal action is not a factor as the ability of the banks to request stays was made with proviso that banks would continue to consider hardship cases.

The basis of the financial hardship I am experiencing is: - (attach Personal sheet see example)

As indicated, I do not, with respect, wish to revisit the question of the fairness of the charges, or of whether some element of each charge was fair.

 

I fully believe that my difficulties meet any definition or criteria of hardship.

 

Many thanks for agreeing to examine matters. I look forward to your reply.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLE ONLY USE YOUR OWN SHEET

AND STATE HOW THE CHARGES HAVE CAUSED OR WORSENED YOUR SITUATION

 

First of all outlined ill health that led to drop in income and eventually position where only income was state benefits

· Secondly that my ill health is likely to continue for a time (add to both of these points as per your predicament)

 

Further points: -

 

· the illness was accompanied by financial difficulties – initially I lost track of my financial affairs and failing to transfer funds between accounts to cover expenses or direct debits began to incur charges

· thereafter, my sick pay ran out and charges began to occur as I did not have the funds to cover my outgoings or increased living costs caused by my illness leading to the worsening of my financial position

· I now rely upon Disability Living Allowance (Higher rate mobility, middle rate care) and Incapacity Benefit resulting in my inability to meet many of my current financial commitments and I find myself unable to make a number of loan or credit card repayments, pay telephone bills (a vital link when you are incapacitated), or sustain many of the commitments we all have (car tax and insurance, home insurance , etc)

· matters were made worse by charges continuing to be applied, and most recently, charges taking an account overdrawn, which in itself resulted in further charges

 

· presently my state of health is not that good, - outline

 

In total £****** in charges have been deducted from the specified accounts, £**** from (account numbered) xxx

Clearly the deduction of such a large overall sum of money has done nothing other that worsen the financial difficulties and hardship experienced.

 

Were my legal action against bank xxx L (to recover the charges levied) have proceeded to Court I would have been entitled to claim statutory interest at the rate of 8% and Court fees of £120

This information and a full list of the charges applied to each account can be found in the attached spreadsheets

 

You will note that the overwhelming majority of the charges were applied before the deterioration of my health and financial circumstances.

 

I am willing to forego the amount I sought to claim for statutory interest and Court charges – in total £****

 

I therefore look to you agreeing to repay in full all of the charges levied and deducted from the specified accounts, namely, the sum of £*******

 

 

 

(by the way I take no credit for the above - modified from the claimant who won by this method)

 

Jan

HARDSHIP DRAFT.doc

[crfx250]

I'm posting this here in the hope it gets more exposure than 'general'.

 

 

*******************************************************

 

 

In view of the sucess in the Alliance and leicester forum with the assistance of the FOS - I was wondering that as the courts seem in most cases to have their hands tied in respect of stays would it be worth drafting a letter so that even those with court cases pending could attempt the "two pronged attack"

 

Attached is a draft suggestion to which the claimants could obviously attach their own details of their situation. I understand from the court case this week that the judges are saying the hardship must be caused by the bank charges and it is not just a case of those who feel that they are in a genuine hardship case that will succeed - although this does not seem to be bourne out entirely by the advice that the case on A&L thread received or the banking code.

 

As the FSA have asked for specific evidence of cases where the banks are not conforming to the basis of the agreement for the waiver I was wondering if people were willing to copy their letters to the banks and the FOS and the FSA copies could be sent to a mod and passed on to the FSA?

 

Just for comments Please

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To XXXXbank

 

 

From XXXXX

Reference account number XXXXXXX

Dear sir / madam

 

I refer to previous correspondence on the above account and wish to draw to your attention a condition of the waiver of claims regarding Overdraft charges . This is an extract from:

FSA waiver statement 27/7/2007 & Memo to Treasury select committee 9/10/2007

“Consumers can still complain about new charges incurred.

Consumers who have received a final response from the bank/building society which does not include an offer

Consumers still have the option of complaining to FOS. However, the banks and building societies have also requested that the FOS does not consider any complaints about unauthorised overdraft charges until resolution of the test case.

Consumers who are in very difficult financial circumstances - 'hardship cases'

Banks and building societies will have to conduct a filtering process to ensure that cases of genuine hardship are still dealt with during the waiver period. Cases of hardship would still be entitled to be referred to, and dealt with by, the FOS.

Consumers who want to complain to the bank/building society about other issues

Consumers can continue to use the existing complaints process to seek redress about other financial matters, such as insurance, mortgages and current accounts. However, if their complaint relates to the level, fairness or unlawfulness of unauthorised overdraft charges, that element of the complaint will be registered but not dealt with.”

Also as I am sure you are aware the banking code requirement for banks to deal with persons in financial difficulty sympathetically and positively has not been affected by the waiver.

 

 

 

I feel there is nothing to be gained at this point from questioning the level of charges applied; my position is merely that the agreement reached between the banks, FSA, FOS and OFT prior to the OFT v banks case being submitted to the High Court at the end of July clearly states that responsibility for determining and resolving a ‘hardship case’ lies with the bank, that the waiver granted to banks, allowing complaints re charges to be held pending the outcome of the High Court case does not apply to ‘hardship’ cases, and banks should therefore seek to identify and resolve such cases; further that where agreement cannot be reached between a customer and a bank the bank must issue a final response letter as a precursor to the FOS seeking to resolve matters.

 

My further position is that I firmly believe it will be possible for you to address my concerns such that I deem the matter settled negating any need for involvement of the FOS or closer to home the continued involvement of the Chief Executives office.

 

 

I am therefore (again) identifying myself to you to one of the cases where the excessive charges have been a cause or have worsened my present position . I (again)attach a summary of my present position for your consideration. As my case has now been in progress for XXXX weeks I would appreciate an early response.

I am sending a full copy of this letter to the FSA and The FOS .If you are unwilling to consider my request then you are under obligation to provide me with a written response indicating that you do not consider my case to be one of financial hardship and the reasons why. I will then consider my next course of action in consultation with the FOS/FSA

I would point out there has been considerable correspondence and phone calls concerning this matter before – and I regret having to bring this to your attention again ( attach any written copies)

The fact that I have commenced legal action is not a factor as the ability of the banks to request stays was made with proviso that banks would continue to consider hardship cases.

The basis of the financial hardship I am experiencing is: - (attach Personal sheet see example)

As indicated, I do not, with respect, wish to revisit the question of the fairness of the charges, or of whether some element of each charge was fair.

 

I fully believe that my difficulties meet any definition or criteria of hardship.

 

Many thanks for agreeing to examine matters. I look forward to your reply.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLE ONLY USE YOUR OWN SHEET

AND STATE HOW THE CHARGES HAVE CAUSED OR WORSENED YOUR SITUATION

 

First of all outlined ill health that led to drop in income and eventually position where only income was state benefits

· Secondly that my ill health is likely to continue for a time (add to both of these points as per your predicament)

 

Further points: -

 

· the illness was accompanied by financial difficulties – initially I lost track of my financial affairs and failing to transfer funds between accounts to cover expenses or direct debits began to incur charges

· thereafter, my sick pay ran out and charges began to occur as I did not have the funds to cover my outgoings or increased living costs caused by my illness leading to the worsening of my financial position

· I now rely upon Disability Living Allowance (Higher rate mobility, middle rate care) and Incapacity Benefit resulting in my inability to meet many of my current financial commitments and I find myself unable to make a number of loan or credit card repayments, pay telephone bills (a vital link when you are incapacitated), or sustain many of the commitments we all have (car tax and insurance, home insurance , etc)

· matters were made worse by charges continuing to be applied, and most recently, charges taking an account overdrawn, which in itself resulted in further charges

 

· presently my state of health is not that good, - outline

 

In total £****** in charges have been deducted from the specified accounts, £**** from (account numbered) xxx

Clearly the deduction of such a large overall sum of money has done nothing other that worsen the financial difficulties and hardship experienced.

 

Were my legal action against bank xxx L (to recover the charges levied) have proceeded to Court I would have been entitled to claim statutory interest at the rate of 8% and Court fees of £120

This information and a full list of the charges applied to each account can be found in the attached spreadsheets

 

You will note that the overwhelming majority of the charges were applied before the deterioration of my health and financial circumstances.

 

I am willing to forego the amount I sought to claim for statutory interest and Court charges – in total £****

 

I therefore look to you agreeing to repay in full all of the charges levied and deducted from the specified accounts, namely, the sum of £*******

 

 

 

(by the way I take no credit for the above - modified from the claimant who won by this method)

 

Jan

Attached FilesHARDSHIP DRAFT.doc (30.0 KB, 0 views)

[crfx250]

In view of the sucess in the Alliance and leicester forum with the assistance of the FOS - I was wondering that as the courts seem in most cases to have their hands tied in respect of stays would it be worth drafting a letter so that even those with court cases pending could attempt the "two pronged attack"

 

Attached is a draft suggestion to which the claimants could obviously attach their own details of their situation. I understand from the court case this week that the judges are saying the hardship must be caused by the bank charges and it is not just a case of those who feel that they are in a genuine hardship case that will succeed - although this does not seem to be bourne out entirely by the advice that the case on A&L thread received or the banking code.

 

As the FSA have asked for specific evidence of cases where the banks are not conforming to the basis of the agreement for the waiver I was wondering if people were willing to copy their letters to the banks and the FOS and the FSA copies could be sent to Jansus or crfx250 and passed on to the FSA?

 

Just for comments Please

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To XXXXbank

 

 

From XXXXX

Reference account number XXXXXXX

Dear sir / madam

 

I refer to previous correspondence on the above account and wish to draw to your attention a condition of the waiver of claims regarding Overdraft charges . This is an extract from:

FSA waiver statement 27/7/2007 & Memo to Treasury select committee 9/10/2007

“Consumers can still complain about new charges incurred.

Consumers who have received a final response from the bank/building society which does not include an offer

Consumers still have the option of complaining to FOS. However, the banks and building societies have also requested that the FOS does not consider any complaints about unauthorised overdraft charges until resolution of the test case.

Consumers who are in very difficult financial circumstances - 'hardship cases'

Banks and building societies will have to conduct a filtering process to ensure that cases of genuine hardship are still dealt with during the waiver period. Cases of hardship would still be entitled to be referred to, and dealt with by, the FOS.

Consumers who want to complain to the bank/building society about other issues

Consumers can continue to use the existing complaints process to seek redress about other financial matters, such as insurance, mortgages and current accounts. However, if their complaint relates to the level, fairness or unlawfulness of unauthorised overdraft charges, that element of the complaint will be registered but not dealt with.”

Also as I am sure you are aware the banking code requirement for banks to deal with persons in financial difficulty sympathetically and positively has not been affected by the waiver.

 

 

 

I feel there is nothing to be gained at this point from questioning the level of charges applied; my position is merely that the agreement reached between the banks, FSA, FOS and OFT prior to the OFT v banks case being submitted to the High Court at the end of July clearly states that responsibility for determining and resolving a ‘hardship case’ lies with the bank, that the waiver granted to banks, allowing complaints re charges to be held pending the outcome of the High Court case does not apply to ‘hardship’ cases, and banks should therefore seek to identify and resolve such cases; further that where agreement cannot be reached between a customer and a bank the bank must issue a final response letter as a precursor to the FOS seeking to resolve matters.

 

My further position is that I firmly believe it will be possible for you to address my concerns such that I deem the matter settled negating any need for involvement of the FOS or closer to home the continued involvement of the Chief Executives office.

 

 

I am therefore (again) identifying myself to you to one of the cases where the excessive charges have been a cause or have worsened my present position . I (again)attach a summary of my present position for your consideration. As my case has now been in progress for XXXX weeks I would appreciate an early response.

I am sending a full copy of this letter to the FSA and The FOS .If you are unwilling to consider my request then you are under obligation to provide me with a written response indicating that you do not consider my case to be one of financial hardship and the reasons why. I will then consider my next course of action in consultation with the FOS/FSA

I would point out there has been considerable correspondence and phone calls concerning this matter before – and I regret having to bring this to your attention again ( attach any written copies)

The fact that I have commenced legal action is not a factor as the ability of the banks to request stays was made with proviso that banks would continue to consider hardship cases.

The basis of the financial hardship I am experiencing is: - (attach Personal sheet see example)

As indicated, I do not, with respect, wish to revisit the question of the fairness of the charges, or of whether some element of each charge was fair.

 

I fully believe that my difficulties meet any definition or criteria of hardship.

 

Many thanks for agreeing to examine matters. I look forward to your reply.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLE ONLY USE YOUR OWN SHEET

AND STATE HOW THE CHARGES HAVE CAUSED OR WORSENED YOUR SITUATION

 

First of all outlined ill health that led to drop in income and eventually position where only income was state benefits

· Secondly that my ill health is likely to continue for a time (add to both of these points as per your predicament)

 

Further points: -

 

· the illness was accompanied by financial difficulties – initially I lost track of my financial affairs and failing to transfer funds between accounts to cover expenses or direct debits began to incur charges

· thereafter, my sick pay ran out and charges began to occur as I did not have the funds to cover my outgoings or increased living costs caused by my illness leading to the worsening of my financial position

· I now rely upon Disability Living Allowance (Higher rate mobility, middle rate care) and Incapacity Benefit resulting in my inability to meet many of my current financial commitments and I find myself unable to make a number of loan or credit card repayments, pay telephone bills (a vital link when you are incapacitated), or sustain many of the commitments we all have (car tax and insurance, home insurance , etc)

· matters were made worse by charges continuing to be applied, and most recently, charges taking an account overdrawn, which in itself resulted in further charges

 

· presently my state of health is not that good, - outline

 

In total £****** in charges have been deducted from the specified accounts, £**** from (account numbered) xxx

Clearly the deduction of such a large overall sum of money has done nothing other that worsen the financial difficulties and hardship experienced.

 

Were my legal action against bank xxx L (to recover the charges levied) have proceeded to Court I would have been entitled to claim statutory interest at the rate of 8% and Court fees of £120

This information and a full list of the charges applied to each account can be found in the attached spreadsheets

 

You will note that the overwhelming majority of the charges were applied before the deterioration of my health and financial circumstances.

 

I am willing to forego the amount I sought to claim for statutory interest and Court charges – in total £****

 

I therefore look to you agreeing to repay in full all of the charges levied and deducted from the specified accounts, namely, the sum of £*******

 

 

 

(by the way I take no credit for the above - modified from the claimant who won by this method)

 

Jan

Attached FilesHARDSHIP DRAFT.doc (30.0 KB, 0 views)

[jansus]

To any mods that might read this.

 

It has been boought to my attention that it was thought I was asking for personal details - this was not my intention at all - having spoken in the past to another poster on here who was besieged by the press I am aware how dangerous this is .

 

I am aware how difficult it is to collate the info on here . So the idea is if you think the route of going back to the banks with a letter such as this is at all useful, what if the claimants at the same time as sending a copy to the FOS and FSA gave you a copy with the personal details blanked out - then they could be all sent together saying the originals are on their way ? or a questionaire ?

 

Do you feel your case is based on th fact that the bank charges have caused or worsened your situation

Have you informed the banks of this

Have they ignored your request to be considered a hardship case

Have they continued with court action and requested a stay?

 

Then maybe all these could be sent - and surely the FSA would realise that with Data protection you could not give out details?

 

Just some questions really.

 

Jan

[caro]

I don't think anyone doubted your intentions Jansus, but I know you will understand the concern about this. The idea certainly merits consideration, and has been brought to the attention of BankFodder. I have spoken to him today and he has a personal commitment, but hopes to be able to get online later in the day.

 

Please don't think the issue is being ignored, but I'm sure you'll understand that the logistics of a site such as this, which is run by volunteers, means we can't always respond as quickly as some might think we should.

 

We try our best so please bear with us.

[crfx250]

Thanks for your response Caro and I'm very pleased this issue is finally getting the attention it deserves.

 

Jansus has put a lot of hard work into this and we have been trying to

attract the attention of site moderaters to this issue for at least 10 days

- which, by any standards imaginable, could only have led us to the conclusion it was indeed being ignored - and only had a response yesterday, no doubt doubt due to ''logistics''.

 

I certainly appreciate just how time consuming and complicted it must be to reply to someones thread.

[jansus]

By the way I have seen a good three or four cases and have a couple pm me to seay that they feel thay are affected by this and would be willing for their details (dont worry they have not passed any on) to be used and I am sure there are more

- but some may have now left the site as they think that their cases being stayed is the end of the line for the moment.

 

By the way is there any other definition of "hardship" in any other official documents that could be referred to - some courts have said the charges must be the cause of the hardship - although other opinion is that if you are already in that position and the charges have made it worse - then that would apply as well . Is there a section of the banking code that could be quoted that would clarify this?

 

 

Jan:)

[crfx250]

I have tried before to find the BCSB's definition of hardship before on their

site but couldn't find it. I'll have another go. As far as I'm aware, the FSA

have only quoted the Banking Code's definition of hardship so it might be

difficult to use another.

 

Also the point in your earlier post about the FSA realising the Data Protection Act would prevent us from including personal details is

a good one. There would be nothing to prevent them from requesting

the details directly from the people concerned.

[caro]

From a personal point of view, I only became aware of the issue yesterday, and understand that this post was in the Bear Garden, where it may not be seen by those who need to know about it. I have discovered since that it has been posted in many other forums, but the bank forums I tend to follow are very quiet these days for obvious reasons. Unfortunately doing this means that any discussion or ideas can be diluted, and if people are unaware of other threads on the issue they will miss out on parts, or indeed may duplicate effort working on something that's already been dealt with elsewhere

 

If a post goes unanswered for, say, 24 hours, or requires the attention of someone on the team more urgently, reporting it will ensure that it comes to the teams attention. That way it doesn't matter who is about, someone will be able to respond in some way if necessary. This can be done using the small triangle with the exclamation mark in each post.

 

I'm sure you'd agree that not every post needs a mods attention, and none of us are "experts" on everything.

 

Regarding definitions of hardship, I would suggest that if the FSA definition is not clear, or people still don't get their cases dealt with is this way, there is still the option of going to court who may agree with the customers definition as opposed to the banking industry. I'm not sure if you've seen the post in the Bank Templates Library covering ways of proving hardship. Alternatively if the FSA definition lacks clarity, there is no harm in trying other avenues IMO.

[Rooster-UK]

Unfortunately doing this means that any discussion or ideas can be diluted, and if people are unaware of other threads on the issue they will miss out on parts, or indeed may duplicate effort working on something that's already been dealt with elsewh.ere

 

What about replacing all the individual posts on the different forums with a links to the actual thread. Then all the posts will come to one central point, rather than being spread out across the entire site. This could be made a sticky in each forum.

 

(My twopennorth).

[caro]

I'm not convinced at the merit in this Rooster because as we know the bank forums are very quiet at the moment, and we always seem to have loads of stickys, which personally I find very annoying. BankFodder is aware of the issue as I say, so I suggest that we let him deal with it as he sees fit.

[jansus]

Sorry do you mean a link to the thread of crfx250 - which is where the FSA have said that if he has evidence of the banks not adhering to the terms of the waiver they are willing to look at the evidence?

 

Or a link to this thread?

 

This thread actually was originally in the general section not the bear garden and actually came about as we realised that gathering information about how many people this might affect - by posting in each forum was not working - probably because it came from me who no-body knows:rolleyes:

 

 

Actually I think there is still a lot going on in the bank forums - although obviously not the same volume as before and I am afraid people still need help finding everything ( frustrating I know)

 

I realise there is help defining hardship - but more wondering about opinions on the FOS angle as compared to the judges opinion this week which was very black and white.

 

 

 

 

Jan

[crfx250]

The reason I posted the thread in the Bear Garden was because that's where all mods were and low and behold I was right. I agree that not all threads don't need the attention of mods but I would have thought that threads that include the words ''any ideas from mods?'' in the title might have given at least a clue even to non experts

[caro]

Regrettably many people request mods attention when all they need is to look in the FAQ's. Ideas are welcome from everyone, and I'm more aware of your work in the bank forums Jansus, than the campaigning that I understand crfx is involved in.

 

It doesn't matter who offers ideas, they are taken on merit, rather than who posts them.

 

I have no intention of apologising for myself or anyone else taking some time out for a bit of fun in the bear garden in their own time. Mods are under no more of an obligation to answer posts than anyone else. We aren't answerable to anyone about how we spend any time we may choose to spend on the site.

 

Now you have succeeded in getting the attention you wanted for this project, I hope we can all move on having learnt from any possible mistakes in handling it in the first place, and concentrate on the issue in hand.

[crfx250]

Caro, I'm not asking for an apology for your time spent in the Bear Garden.

 

However, if I pm several mods asking for help and consideration of the issue and I don't even an acknowledgement I think an aplolgy would be appropriate. Of course I realise you are all unpaid volunteers but that

is no excuse for not acknowledging messages. And nor is ''logistics''.

 

Jansus also volunteers her efforts free of charge but somehow manages to answer her pms

[jansus]

Now you have succeeded in getting the attention you wanted for this project, I hope we can all move on having learnt from any possible mistakes in handling it in the first place, and concentrate on the issue in hand.

 

 

I agree lets stop wasting time - decide on whether there is a way to collate the information and then even if it does not have the desired affect then at least we will have tried to help to do something for some claimants that are in dire straights - even if their charges were frozen while the banks look into their cases outside the court system I am sure that would be a help.

 

As far as I am concerned I was in a fortunate enough position not to worry about the stays - and I struck lucky . I could easily of done what others have doen and just slope off and not come back - but I would like to help if possible .

 

I have gained a lot of help from this site and want to put some back if possible.

 

Jan

[caro]

Fair comment regarding Jansus, and also yourself crfx. I can only speak for myself by saying that I did not receive any messages about it, although I understand that one of the other mods had brought the matter to the attention of BankFodder. He has been attending to some matters of his own, which are not CAG related and has been off line lately.

 

I can't answer for others, but I try to answer my PM's, unless for example someone is being abusive or impolite, in which case I don't waste my time responding. I too get frustrated at the lack of an appropriate response at times, but so far things have generally worked out quite well on CAG with it being managed as it has. We are all still learning and I'm sure you appreciate we could never have anticipated how big it would become.

[caro]

I will raise the matter of collating information with AlanfromDerby for his views. My first thought is to deal with it in the same way as collection of T&C's if admin agree with going ahead with this, but Alan may have other suggestions. I do not know when he will be on site, so please bear with me if it takes longer to get back to you than you might hope.

[crfx250]

ok Caro, thanks.

[gizmo111]

On the issue of hardship - I would have thought that anything that takes you below benefit level would be considered hardship as every letter I have seen awarding benefit says this is the minimum the law says you need to live on. So if for example a JSA is £59 and then there is £70 housing benefit and £20 concil tax benefit per week - this is the minimum according to benefit rules. So to take a job you would need to have £149 per week take home - this would be your hardship level. There is a calculator that is used by child poverty agencys - I'll see if I can find it.

The next level of hardship would be if a bank caused your rent/mortgage/council tax to bounce as these are priority debts and have serious implications.

[caro]

Excellent point Giz. Anyone would be hard pressed to argue with that.

 

BTW, I edited the post as comments are welcome from all, not just mods.

[Goldlady]

Also if the bank have made an 'arrestment of benefits' in contravention of the Social Security Act - my income is more than the above but is mainly tax credits and child benefit.

[gizmo111]

This is the formula used for social inclusion projects and calculates the poverty line. It is from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.

 

That didn't work - I'l lsee if I can find a better way to post it.

[gizmo111]

Lets try this - bearing in mind any calculation will have to have things like tax credits and child benefit added to get a true income figure. It is then calculated that if you have less than 60% of your income left after essential outgoings then you are classed as poor.

Research from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and used by the govt in statistics when quoting the poverty line.

Table_of_poverty_line_data-07.doc

[caro]

It's official then. I'm poor if not bloomin' poverty stricken and destitute.

 

If someone has more than benefits coming in, like Goldlady, it might be worth calculating if the charges are more than the income that isn't benefits. In other words the charges start to eat into benefits.