Bathgatebuyer v Halifax Visa PPI

[alanalana]

Hello BGB,

 

SHould have added that they are saying that there was no responsibility on them to tell me that I could have sought alternative insurance elsewhere.

This preliminary finding by the CC would tend to disagree.

 

 

I know this is probably too late for you but this is a useful link to the Competition Commission ( You may already have seen this)...

http://www.competition-commission.or.../pdf/18-08.pdf

 

Good luck with your case anyway. It may just be worth dropping the hint at some crucial point about these findings.

 

aa

[bathgatebuyer]

From reading the article on the Which website, the rules for pre-95 sales give a degree of comfort over this too. I've asked the Association of British Insurers for a copy of their good practice guidelines from 2001 as the Halifax deny that they've done anything contrary to good practice at the time, although almost everything I've read does suggest that a customer should be provided with sufficient information to make an informed decision over the purchase of insurance.

 

Interestingly, the Halifax also claim that there's no fudiciary relationship in respect of PPI between myself and them and that the relationship is with Halifax Ireland Insurance, therefore, the Halifax themselves have not mis-sold anything. They also state that Halifax Ireland is not part of their group of companies. I'll do a wee bit more digging on this - my former employer is on first name terms with the former Governor of the Bank of Scotland, so I'll ask him to do a bit of digging too!

 

Would be interested in anyone's thoughts before I return the Allocation Questionnaire.

Edited June 23, 2008 by bathgatebuyer

[bathgatebuyer]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand a simple google search for Halifax Ireland Insurance states that they 'are a subsidiary of the HBoS group'.

 

I did not come down the Clyde on a bananaboat.

[bathgatebuyer]

I have to complete my allocation questionnaire by Monday (been busy, serious stuff going on elsewhere). Is the court mediation service worthwhile or should I persist with my full court application?

 

I made a 'without prejudice save as to costs' offer to settle with them at £1200 which they rejected - something which I thought was a fair offer at about a half of the total amount as it now stands. Anyway, they didn't respond within the timescale I'd given them to consider it (by 2nd July) so now got to take it onto the next stage.

 

Frustratingly I'm hearing lots about the Halifax settling with other people........................but not me! I won't take it personally

 

Does anyone have any experience of the mediation service?

[mollington]

just a random idea on the application form ,

 

was it filled in by one of those people with clipboards , you some times see them places doing promotions or stopping people in the street,

 

they generally fill in the application form for you. and you sign it,

 

 

this would be treated by the bank as a mailer becuase its the same sort of form , and it would explain why its not in your handwriting ,

[bathgatebuyer]

I had thought about whether it had been filled in during a branch visit or something which I have asked them about and there was just that it was completed by 'mailer' with no further details about that.

[mollington]

i dident mean by a brach vist ,somtimes companys employ people to promote there credit cards , (ive been stoopped at the theater a few times by mbna) either at events or by literally stopping them in the street.

 

these forms are like mailer's so thats why the halifax would call them a mailer , i dont think they have a seprate cataegory for this type of application ,

[bathgatebuyer]

I'm quite careful about giving details over in the street and things like that, but the uncertainty over the very detail over how this card was applied for given the information they've supplied is one of the reason I want answers from them. It's at the stage now where I feel like Quincy ME examining every detail of what they have supplied me with, unlike him, I don't seem to have been able to find an answer!

 

I have returned the Allocation Questionnaire and in it have said that I would consider using the small claims mediation service in an effort to resolve this. All along I've wanted answers from HBOS but not got any, and the defence that they have served seems very murky in it's detail (right down to denying that Halifax Ireland is even part of their group of companies, something which is blatantly untrue).

[bathgatebuyer]

I've received this from the OFT in relation to a letter I sent to them complaining about Sainsburys and their efforts to insist that a recontructed CCA would suffice in satisfying a request I made to them under the 1974 Act. This is quite useful to me as it also suggests that the failure of Halifax to supply a 'true copy' as opposed to a reconstructed one or one missing in the full prescribed terms is one which they view as unfair and unenforceable. Very handy for me as there is a balance of £700 or thereabouts on the account (all PPI premiums!)

 

[alanalana]

Hello bathgatebuyer,

 

I've received this from the OFT in relation to a letter I sent to them complaining about Sainsburys and their efforts to insist that a recontructed CCA would suffice in satisfying a request I made to them under the 1974 Act.

 

Just reading through your last post with interest. I have had same sort of response to my complaint.

 

I believe and others too, that when it comes down to the Consumer Credit Agreement, Only the original document will do. If a copy of the original is used it must have a valid audit trail.

 

This link...

Draft order for directions - including directions for disclosure

 

contains this...

d) a copy of any Notice of Assignment to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) relating to the [Claimant’s] [Defendant’s] (whichever you are) account

 

e) if copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

 

(i) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(ii) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

(iii) copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(iv) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards.

 

General understanding is the CCA must be the original not a cobbled together, made up, magically produced document.

 

There is too much defence being put up by financial institutions that cannot produce the valid CCA. If it is not the original or certified copy of the original as per the Civil Evidence Act 1995 (CEA 1995) with a valid quality assured certified audit trail then it should not be allowed as evidence.

 

This is the Act...

Results within legislation - Statute Law Database

 

hope this helps:)

 

aa

I am no legal expert but in my opinion the CEA is a valuable Act for consumers

[bathgatebuyer]

Excellent stuff there, Alanalana! I think may just ask for some of that in advance as I will do with Sainsburys too.

 

I should have added that the consistency of response from the OFT would suggest that their understanding and consideration of these points would suggest that there is no doubt in there eyes that what they - and we - are saying is correct.

[alanalana]

way to go bathgatebuyer,

 

fight the good fight and may the best cager win;)

 

aa

[adamski]

Whens the court case any chance of seeing your POCs? and their defence?

[bathgatebuyer]

I've not put my POC as yet, although it will follow! (once I can work out how to post a word document rather than a photo).

 

Will stick their defence up on here over the next few days (so many other places I would like to stick their defence up!) and get opinions on it. They're relying on the Limitations Act to get out of it, and also say ing that they have no liability as far as misselling goes as the Insurance was through Halifax Insurance Ireland and not the HBoS (and they are denying that HII is part of the HBOS Group).

 

I have filed my AQ and also submitted the Small Courts Mediation Form as I said that I would be willing to consider this in an effort to resolve the case - I'm not out to fight a war, just get my cash back!

[adamski]

can't you just cut and paste from the word document onto here?

[bathgatebuyer]

Got my court date for the 30th Sept. Apparently 20mins have been made available to discuss this on the phone.

 

Blimey, I talk to Directory Enquiries longer than that. Should I be concerned about only getting 20 mins for this?!

[alanalana]

Hello BGB,

 

Got my court date for the 30th Sept. Apparently 20mins have been made available to discuss this on the phone.

 

Blimey, I talk to Directory Enquiries longer than that. Should I be concerned about only getting 20 mins for this?!

 

May I ask is this 20 minutes to discuss the Court hearing with Halifax? or 20 minutes to discuss settlement before Court?

 

If it is the latter you may be in for an offer!

 

aa

[bathgatebuyer]

hi - the letter days that 20 mins has been allowed for the hearing and then goes on to explain the Scheme for Telephone Hearings.

 

It says that the 'Claimants Legal Representative' (that will be me then!) is ordered to arrange the telephone conference and that a case summary and draft order should be prepared and submitted no later than the last working day before the hearing.

 

Interesting! Never been to this stage before so a learning experience for me. Tbh, I would rather actually go to Court than do it over the phone. Happy to see the whites of the eyes of the Halifax's solicitors in court rather than allowing them to hide behind a phone call.

[alanalana]

hello bgb,

 

hi - the letter days that 20 mins has been allowed for the hearing and then goes on to explain the Scheme for Telephone Hearings.

 

It says that the 'Claimants Legal Representative' (that will be me then!) is ordered to arrange the telephone conference and that a case summary and draft order should be prepared and submitted no later than the last working day before the hearing.

 

Interesting! Never been to this stage before so a learning experience for me. Tbh, I would rather actually go to Court than do it over the phone. Happy to see the whites of the eyes of the Halifax's solicitors in court rather than allowing them to hide behind a phone call.

 

Are you not given an option on the Telephone Hearing?

 

aa

[bathgatebuyer]

Hi - I don't appear to have been! In fact, it says that it 'orders the Claimant to arrange the telephone conference'.

 

Meanwhile I've also chased up the Small Claims Mediation Service whose pro-forma I have returned. They asked me for contact details for the Halifax this morning which I have supplied.

 

Frustratingly, I keep hearing about people getting goodwill gesture settlements from the Halifax when passed to the FOS, yet clearly their heels are being dug in here which is a bit annoying, but they wouldn't be the Halifax unless they were being annoying!

[bathgatebuyer]

Has anyone been involved in preparing a Case Summary and Draft Order for a Hearing whether by phone or in person?

[bathgatebuyer]

I've been granted my court date in my case against the Halifax but I'd like to ask them for some additional information which may be useful in my case. Am I entitled to ask for additional info from (say) their Custoemr Relations team while awaiting the trial or does everything have to go through the court?

 

They seem to be relying on the fact that they've followed the ABI guidelines for insurance sales, but according to the ABI, at the time I took my insurance out, it was the GISC guidelines which they would have had to follow and this did not split between advised and non-advised sales.

 

I would like to ask them to show that their internal procedures complied with the ABI guidelines at this time (that original ABI comment coming from them), and also what their procedures are for document management as the writing on the CCA they provided is not mine. I also want to ask where the application form they provided complies with the CCA 1974 in terms of prescribed terms (as it doesn't have any!), and also ask for confirmation that Halifax Insurance Ireland are part of the HBOS Group (which their defence says they are not).

 

All useful questions I'd like to have some answers to. Can I ask it direct of them or do i need to go through the court?

[maggie]

Good luck Bathgate,

I am rooting for you.Fingers crossed.

 

Maggie

[alanalana]

Hello bgb,

 

this is from the draft order for directions within the site.

 

If you are presented with copies of documents then you can use this to fight back. You may already be aware of it but just in case.

 

Draft Order for Directions

 

For straightforward bank charges claims where you are the claimant:

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

 

a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made

b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are unfair

d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon

 

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed;

 

For a counterclaim (eg when you are being taken to court for a debt but are claiming charges as part of your ‘defence’) omit part 1 above and change the heading of this part to:

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

 

If the bank has failed to supply a list of charges or statements, insert

 

a) A list of all charges applied to the Claimant’s account with dates, type and amount of each charge

 

and renumber the remainder accordingly. Otherwise:

 

a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon

 

for credit cards insert b) whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not;

b) Whether such charge is accepted to be unfair, and if not why not

c) If such charge is alleged to be fair, all facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable

d) Any witness statements

e) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon

 

If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order.

 

For claims or defences based on agreements regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 if no enforceable copy of the agreement has been sent:

 

a) a copy of the executed agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for the account

 

For a loan or hire purchase agreement

 

b) a statement signed by or on behalf of the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,--

(i) the total sum paid under the agreement by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are);

(ii) the total sum which has become payable under the agreement by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are) but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due; and

(iii) the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are), and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date, or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due.

 

For a credit card

 

b) a statement signed by or on behalf of the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,--

(i) the state of the account,

(ii) the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are) to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company), and

(iii) the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are) does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are) to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company).

 

General

 

c) copies of Default Notices (if any) issued pursuant to s87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are)

 

d) a copy of any Notice of Assignment to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) relating to the [Claimant’s] [Defendant’s] (whichever you are) account

e) if copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

 

(i) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(ii) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

(iii) copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(iv) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards

The important bits in green. Any copies have to be fully authenticated with proof and full audit and Quality Assurance documentation for the authentication.

 

Following the threads on PPI forum there appear to be may banks etc that will fall short of the mark on authenticity and Quality Assurance accreditation.

 

 

Hope this is of use.

 

aa

 

 

[bathgatebuyer]

Having broken new ground with this whole court thing, it's all a bit of a learning experience. I've scribbled down some thoughts today for the CPR 18 request and wonder what everyone thinks?

 

Please note that this is a formal request for further information in accordance with Part 18 of the Civil Procedure Rules.

1. The defendant is requested to provide details of their internal procedures in order to ensure compliance with the Association of British Insurance (ABI) Regulations for the sale of insurance as at XX May 2001, along with details of any external audits or quality assurance assessment of these procedures undertaken. Letter of Xrd October 2008 from XXXXXXXof Halifax Customer Relations refers;

2. The defendant is requested to provide details of their internal procedures for the management of documents – particularly credit card application forms – as at XX May 2001, along with details of any external audits of quality assurance assessment of these procedures undertaken. If this is not available, notification should be given immediately to both the defendant and the Court in accordance with the Civil Evidence Act 1995;

3. The defendant is requested to provide details of their internal procedures in order to satisfy the Money Laundering Regulations 2007

4. The defendant is requested to provide a true copy of the original application form document dated XX May 2001, rather than the scanned copy provided thus far, and outline the measures taken in respect of this document to ensure compliance with those document management procedures outlined in 2 above from the date of application in xx May 2001;

5. The defendant is requested to confirm the measures taken to train all staff involved in the handling of application forms, and the scanning and storage of documents;

6. The defendant is also requested to provide a true copy of the Consumer Credit Agreement relation to this account. For the avoidance of doubt, this must incorporate the prescribed terms and conditions outlined within section 60 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)

7. The defendant is requested to confirm the legal status of Halifax Insurance Ireland within the HBOS Group;

8. The defendant is requested to confirm whether commission was paid between Halifax Insurance Ireland and Halifax Plc at the time of the sale in May 2001;

9. The defendant is requested to confirm those actions undertaken to investigate the concerns raised by the claimant in correspondence to Customer Relations dated XX that the ‘Application Form’ provided by the defendant in response to the request for the Consumer Credit Agreement for this account is not in the claimants handwriting;

10. The defendant is requested to confirm whether those measures taken in 8 above are aligned to their policies and procedures for investigating complaints of suspicious activity. The defendant should also provide a copy of the results of any external audit undertaken in respect of this issue;

11. The defendant is request to confirm the number of complaints it has received in relation to the mis-sale of Payment Protection Insurance, and the numbers of cases which it has settled following referral to the Financial Ombudsman Service;

12. The defendant is requested to provided strict proof that the extensive terms and conditions relating to this PPI policy were provided to the claimant;

13. The defendant is requested to provide a copy of any eligibility or benefits and needs questionnaire in assessing whether the claimant would benefit from the PPI cover provided;

14. The defendant is requested to provide confirmation as to any internal procedures it has to ensure compliance with the Administration of Justice Act 1970 as well as the Office of Fair Trading Guidance Note on Debt Collection from 2003.

I trust that you will be able to provide this above requested information within the next 28 days.

Again, would welcome any thoughts before I send this off to Howard and his cronies at the Halifax.

As an aside, I wonder if they Halifax were so tardy when investigating the £7,500 which went missing from their chief exec's account through ID fraud!