FM v Lloyds

[FM79]

I'm having fun and games trying to get Lloyds to comply fully with my SAR!

 

I sent it on 22 Jun this year. They banked the £10 fee, 40+ days passed, I sent a second letter (on 10 Aug) giving 7 days to provide the data requested. They still didn't comply, so I lodged a complaint with the ICO on 18 Aug.

 

Later that week I received some of the data (most of it useless), but not all of it. I was able to calculate my current account charges from 2001-2009 (about £1,500 with 8% on top), but not for my credit card and loans. They only sent credit card statements from 2003 onwards.

 

They included a note saying that they'd forward the missing data from the loans department ASAP.

 

I sent another letter (7 Sep), pointing out exactly what was missing and what I wanted: credit card statements earlier than 2003 as well as data for my settled loans and my current, defaulted loan).

 

The day after, I received more bumph concerning my settled loans, but not everything I expected. There were no T&Cs (I want to check on PPI status for each), nothing with my signature on and nothing at all relating to my current, defaulted loan.

 

I explained in all three letters that l'd like to make a Hardship Claim, so I asked for an Income and Expenditure form, which I still don't have.

 

I don't care if they close my account, I've cleared my overdraft now and bank elsewhere. What do you suggest I do? Should I wait, or start court proceedings now? Do I need form N1? Is it worth ringing Lloyds' Data Controller?

 

Advice and encouragement much appreciated.

 

I'm also challenging Halifax for refund of bank charges, so details will be posted on the Halifax forum (FM v Halifax).

 

Thanks for all your help,

FM

 

P.S. I'm England/Wales, not Scotland.

Edited September 17, 2009 by FM79

[silverfox1961]

Hi

Send them a Letter Before Action giving them 7/14 days to comply and if they don't, serve court papers on them but make it absolutely clear what you want. Don't just assume they will know.

 

fox

[landy_alert]

Hi FM:)

 

You say you asked LTSB for an Income and Expenditure form - I read on another similar site that LTSB apparently don't have their own in house I&E form. This was posted by 'yourbank' who is our resident hardship expert and has been contacting the banks specifically to ascertain what their different requirements and processes are when dealing with hardship claims.

 

We sent them the I&E found here in the templates library, although there are others you can use which can be found on the internet and which are equally acceptable.

 

As to your SAR being incomplete you could, I believe, make a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office - there is an online complaints form on their website.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[FM79]

Thanks for the replies, especially the info about the Hardship I&E form. I got a 404 error on the link but will search for the templates and 'yourbank' and send it to Lloyds when I can give them a charges total.

 

When I set out exactly what I wanted them to send me (in my third letter, although I did say in the other two that I'd go all the way to court if they didn't comply), I closed with "I shall proceed with court action for non-disclosure, together with damages at the discretion of the court and without any further notice, if you do not provide the following within the next seven days." Is that good enough for a Letter Before Action? I don't want to keep making the same threat if it makes me look like I don't mean it.

 

I have made a complaint to the ICO and I've told Lloyds this. Seems like a fat lot of good complaining to them though. At least it was easy to lodge a complaint online. Here is the link: Complaints about data protection policy - ICO

 

Best,

FM

[landy_alert]

Hi FM:)

 

Have you had a look at the Hardship subforum (at the top of the Bank Action Group forum, in the General section)?

 

There are plenty of threads there detailing peoples' experiences with getting their charges refunded under the hardship criteria, several of which (mine included;)) relate to LTSB.

 

You may glean further info to help you there.

 

Also there are a couple of useful threads started by yourbank dealing with the FSA waiver/hardship on the 3rd (last) page - yourbank used to work for Natwest and has good insider info on how banks are dealing with hardship claims generally - he has become something of a hardship champion on the forums and is very knowledgeable on the subject!

 

Good luck,

 

Landy x

[FM79]

Thanks Landy. Lots to read! I appreciate the pointers. It's encouraging reading of other experiences.

 

Thanks everyone for sharing your advice and good luck to one and all.

 

Let's beat the greedy buggers!!!

 

Best,

FM

[FM79]

Quick update.

 

I didn't waste more time and money on Lloyds in the end. They've had their LBA. Letters #2 (10 Aug 09) and #3 (7 Sep 09) included the line

 

I shall proceed with Court action for non-disclosure, together with damages at the discretion of the Court and without any further notice, if you do not provide the following within the next seven days

 

and I've allowed more time than the Act sets out before proceeding with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office and now court action.

 

I've received lots of papers from Lloyds (although well outside the 40 days), most of them screenshots that mean nothing to me, but I haven't received everything.

 

Bear in mind that the date of my SAR was 22 Jun.

 

There has been no response to my list of missing items that I expect to receive (sent 7 Sep).

 

So... N1 delivered to county court today with cheque for £30, plus breakdown of costs/damages ('Schedule of Costs and Disbursements') totalling approx £170.

 

Thanks to havinastella for his help. Will keep thread updated.

 

Best,

FM

[landy_alert]

Hi FM:)

 

Glad to see you're keeping on top of this and that you've kept to your word regarding the court claim!

 

Will look forward to your next instalment.........

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[FM79]

Thanks Landy.

 

Typical - today I received a letter from Lloyds saying that they've sent everything they can and will send on an I&E form.

 

They say they've provided all credit card statements (uh, they provided two) and

 

in accordance with out retention policies, statements dating back to 1998 are no longer held.

 

Back to 1998? They sent two from mid-2003 and on the earliest one it said that I needed to contact them urgently about arrears, so I'd like to see the statements that came before it.

 

In my last letter, I said I wanted EVERY credit card statement: from when my account was opened (mid-98 to mid-2003. Are they really that thick or just pretending to be so that I don't see July 2001-2003?

 

They said the same about loan agreements: no longer held (my loans were taken out in 1999 and 2000, BTW).

 

Are they trying to fob me off or have I just wasted £30?

 

Do you think the judge will agree that they've sent everything, or does it still matter that my SAR was made almost three months ago to the day and they didn't meet ANY of the Data Protection Act deadlines?

 

Thanks,

FM

[FM79]

Quick update.

 

No I&E form received, no more paperwork either.

 

Have heard from Halifax, who also got a court order at the same time and say they will now comply with my SAR, refund the £10 fee plus the £30 court fee if I withdraw my claim.

 

My Halifax thread is here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/219896-fm-halifax.html

 

Best,

FM

[FM79]

My N10 notice/Notice that Acknowledgement of Service Has Been Filed arrived on Thursday.

 

It says "the defendant responded to the claim indicating an intention to defend all of the claim."

 

Should I be worried? I know they have 28 days to file a defence, during which time they could contact me to try to dissuade me from proceeding to court (which is what Halifax has done - if anyone's interested, my developments with Halifax can be found here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/219896-fm-halifax.html), but I'm worried that they'll win. They say they've given me everything they can, I don't believe they have, but what if the court does? I can't afford to lose the £30 court fee, really.

 

The I&E form that was to be sent under separate cover hasn't materialised either.

 

Has anyone had Mastercard statements and loan details from Lloyds pre-2003?

 

Slightly anxious,

FM

[landy_alert]

Hi FM:)

 

Mr L and I received statements for two loan accounts dating back to 1999 and 2000 in our SARs from LTSB, but not the actual agreements.

 

We actually found our copies of the agreements lurking in our attic.

 

So this shows they do keep paperwork from that far back. However, when we then tried to put in mis-sold PPI claims on these same loan accounts, LTSB very conveniently said they had no record of the account numbers:eek: These accounts are now subject to FOS complaints for mis-sold PPI.

 

As for the I&E form, I firmly believe that they won't send you one - I have yet to hear of anyone who has received one from Lloyds.

 

I'm afraid I have no experience of the court route for SAR non-compliance, but I'm sure havinastella will be able to advise you further on this.

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[FM79]

Hi Landy,

 

Thanks for replying.

 

Still no sign of this I&E form. All part of their bag of tricks, I'm sure.

 

Today I feel that I'll push them all the way. Tomorrow I might worry about losing that £30 court fee and whatever else they could make me pay if the judge sides with Lloyds.

 

Best of luck concerning the mis-sold PPI. They really are a disgrace, aren't they?

 

Best,

FM

[FM79]

Quick update.

 

I've heard nothing since from Lloyds. No offer. No I&E form either.

 

I had a second threatening letter from Halifax today - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/219896-fm-halifax.html - but at least they're trying to prevent this from getting to court.

 

The 28 days to file a defence are ticking by fast...

 

Nervous,

FM

[FM79]

Received the defence from Lloyds yesterday. They challenge everything. They say they've complied with my SAR, that my "losses are inadequately particularised" and "not caused by any actionable wrongdoing on the part of the bank" and requests that the claim be "struck out" and that I pay their costs.

 

I'm really worried about losing and having to pay their costs.

 

But they haven't complied fully. They didn't send all my credit card statements. They only sent two from 2003 and the earliest one said I needed to contact them urgently about arrears, so obviously I'd like to see the statements that came before it. When I specifically asked for earlier statements, they said statements dating back to 1998 are no longer held in accordance with their retention policies.

 

How can I request credit card charges if they'll only let me see two statements? (I know I should have kept all my statements...)

 

They said the same about loan agreements: no longer held because of their retention policy. I've got more than one settled loan (taken out between 1999 and 2001) and one current, defaulted loan (taken out in 2001). They didn't send much relating to any of the settled loans and NOTHING AT ALL relating to my current loan.

 

This isn't full compliance.

 

They haven't sent an I&E form either, and I've asked several times (and been told that one will be sent, has been sent, etc.)

 

Thanks to Landy I know that they DO have loan statements beyond 2003, so I don't know why I wasn't given copies of mine.

 

Has anyone received credit card statements from Lloyds beyond 2003?

 

Worried about having to pay their costs,

FM

[FM79]

Just realised that it doesn't matter if they did give me credit card statements beyond 2003 because I can only go back six years from now anyway, so that means starting at October 2003.

 

This means I have no credit card fees to reclaim, as they were all before October 2003.

 

This also makes my court case weaker. The first credit card statement they gave me is June 2003. My SAR was made in June. Therefore they did comply.

 

I've also read that there are times, although rare, when the small claims court isn't used, so I may well have to pay the bank's fees if tried in a county court as a non-small claims case.

 

Gutted,

FM

[FM79]

I'm obviously thinking about backing off.

 

Can anyone give me a reason for sticking with the court case in the hope of winning £170 costs, bearing in mind that they've sent everything they say they can send (maybe that's full SAR compliance in the eyes of the judge) and the things they haven't sent are no good to me now anyway (I can't claim credit card fees beyond October 2003)?

 

I don't want to even think about having to pay their costs.

 

Hoping for a response from someone,

FM

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

Just bumping so that you know you're not being ignored. It's very quiet here on a Sunday so if no one comes on, hold fire till tomorrow.

 

You know they haven't complied as there is still stuff missing, most importantly, the agreement. They should keep that for 6 years AFTER the account is closed

[FM79]

Thanks silverfox - and sorry for keeping on today.

 

I won't do anything hasty. It's just that hearing from the solicitor shook me up and I'd hate to have to pay the bank's costs.

 

I was probably too hasty in filing my N1, as I'd received some data by then but not all of it and then some more came the day after it had been filed. I still think there's enough missing info to complain about, but how can I prove it if they say that's all they've got?

 

Looking on the bright side, my bank charges are about £1k and there's no way I'll back down on reclaiming those.

 

Thanks for the bump,

FM

[silverfox1961]

I don't know if this helps but I did the same to Capital One. They had previously stated that they had sent me everything but once I submitted the N1 they sent me a load of screenshots previously not supplied.

 

I did discontinue this case but I'm just biding my time before tackling CitiFinancial as they have sent me bu**er all apart from statements.

[FM79]

I haven't heard from the court or Lloyds this week. I think I'll probably pull out. They haven't offered to refund my fees (Halifax have: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/219896-fm-halifax.html), which makes me think Lloyds are supremely confident of not having to pay a penny in court.

 

Is anyone able to convince me that they haven't complied fully or sent as much as they could have? I've had no credit card statements beyond mid-2003 (I know it probably doesn't matter, as that's as far back as I can reclaim charges) and I've had nothing at all about my current loan (which I'm still paying back). Do you think this is enough to satisfy the judge and do you think my costs - £170 - are reasonable?

 

Unsure,

FM

[landy_alert]

Hi FM:)

 

I'm sorry to hear you haven't got anywhere with this - I'm afraid I can't advise what you should do re: the court claim for non-compliance as I haven't been in that situation, although your current loan details should definitely have been included in what you received.

 

Would it be worth you sending a PM to havinastella? - I see they helped you before and I know they have experience of this.

 

I'm just thinking that you really need to get all your info together asap now and if it's your intention to file a claim for bank charges, time is of the essence with all this talk of the HoL decision expected soon. To my mind the banks are just trying every delaying tactic they can think of and as I've said before, Lloyds seem to be the worst of a bad bunch!

 

Hope you get this sorted:)

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[FM79]

Hi Landy.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

I've been given some encouragement about claiming more than 6 years of credit card charges too (under s.32 of the Limitations Act) and I'm going to go for it. But bank charges first.

 

I've been waiting for the I&E form to show up - same with Halifax - but that's obviously one of their ways of keeping you hanging on until you run out of time.

 

I feel more positive today and will get on top of the bank charges at once.

 

Best,

FM

[landy_alert]

 

I feel more positive today and will get on top of the bank charges at once.

 

Best,

FM

 

Glad to hear it - me too actually as I finally filed my claim at court against Lloyds today:D

 

Take care,

 

Landy x

[FM79]

I finally filed my claim at court against Lloyds today:grin:

Good for you Landy.

 

I've almost got my letters/spreadsheets finished, with totals to be reclaimed for both bank and credit card, plus a request to be treated as a hardship case (even without their promised I&E form...).

 

I'll deliver them to my local branch tomorrow and ask them to fax them across to the right department due to the postal strikes.

 

I'd like to try claiming more than 6 years of credit card charges (under s.32 of the Limitations Act) but as they only gave me two statements from mid-2003, I've only got £40 of charges. Still, I'm going to ask for them back, plus it gives me an opportunity to tell them that I don't believe this rubbish about retention policies. They know there are charges on my earlier statements and they don't want me to have the proof.

 

I'm still not sure about proceeding to court for SAR non-compliance though. I have a bad feeling about it. But no Allocation Questionnaire received yet.

 

Best,

FM

Edited October 22, 2009 by FM79