Orge vs BC **WON**

[orge]

orge- out of interest, what did your CCA consist of?

 

Was it simply the application form you completed at the time you asked for a Barclaycard?

 

Yes, it's the application form. Looking through, it seems that the prescribed terms are missing:

Interest rate

Credit Limit

Repayments

 

There's a black box (presumably hasn't copied) which mentions "this is a credit agreement regulated by....". It's possible that they would be under that? Or maybe this is a copy of one of the duplicates? Isn't it 40 days on the CCA? I sent the request to them 15/8/07.

 

You may have been rather generous only claiming CI at 14.9%.

 

What does your CCA say the interest rate was going to be?

 

Good Call! The terms and conditions state 21.6% (purchases) and 23.5% (cash).

 

I'l submit the interest charges as advised - I didn't realise that you get to add 8% on top of CI at county court. At this rate Barclaycard may be paying for me to go snowboarding next year! Prcieless!

 

Thanks v much for your help, it's great to have someone who know's the score.

 

J

[noomill060]

Ogre- as youve realised, that document ISNT a credit agreement.

 

[noomill060]

12 working days on the CCA.

[noomill060]

Get your SAR enforcement claim in as soon as you can after their 40 days is up.

 

As you know, without all prescribed terms, they may as well use your application form as a paper dart.

 

The prescribed terms are in the T&Cs, which is a separate document from that which you signed.

 

You will be able to have all penalty charges and interest levied thereon removed, and the balance paid back to you by cheque without too much trouble.

[noomill060]

Have you written to Mercers yet to let them know you dispute the amount due to unlawfully applied penalties and interest?

 

If not, do it soon and send your letter by Special Delivery. Cost a bit more, but you can add the cost to your claim.

[orge]

The prescribed terms are in the T&Cs, which is a separate document from that which you signed.

They have sent me the T&C's, but as you say it's seperate and unsigned... There was also an internal document, but again this does not say it's a credit agreement and is not signed by myself. It doesn't seem to be Barclaycard's day...

 

Does the black box have anything to do with it? I was wondering whether the copying process may have masked the prescribed terms or something...? If so, it's possible that they may have a true copy?

 

I understand that they have now committed an offence, as it's over 42 days since my request. However, does this have any material bearing on my claim? In some cases, I've seen people trying to claim back everything that they've ever paid in... :o This does seem a little bit "dodgy".

 

Just about to print and post a letter to Mercer's.

 

Thanks again,

 

J

[orge]

I'm still receiving harassing phone calls from Mercers.

 

Have informed them that I will be writing to the financial ombudsman to report their behaviour (I have an idea what to write, but has anybody seen any good examples?). However, they're still threatening to sell the debt (date set at 13/11). I'm not particularly concerned, as they don't have a valid CCA and selling a debt under dispute is a breach of the Credit regulations. However, should I be doing anything else to intervene?

 

 

Part of the problem seems to be poor letter handling.*Barclaycard have acknowledged receipt of my letter (recv'd 22/10, acknowledged on the 25th). They've said they intend to respond by 20/11!!?? If that's the best they can do, I will already have served them with my POC!

 

 

On the other hand,*my letter to Mercer's was only recv'd on 29/10, so it seems to have been delayed...? However, I was told they're using the same system, so it's pretty poor that my account is not yet showing as under dispute. Legally, I guess this is all moot - they're lack of organisation is hardly my problem.

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

J

[sea-sidelady]

You need to send the harrassment letter.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

 

Get this sent asap.

[orge]

You need to send the harrassment letter.[url=http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html][/url]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

Get this sent asap.

Cheers for the pointer. I've modded it a little and added mention a mention of the OFT guidelines and FOS.

Will send it to Mercer's and cc Barclaycard tomorrow.

Thanks!

 

 

J

[orge]

LBA was sent off yesterday and I'm currently putting together my POC. However,I have a couple of questions regarding the schedule and interest:

1. What should I use for the claim date (I will submit the POC around the 22/11)?

 

 

2. Also, they are continuing to rack up charges/interest despite the fact that the account is under dispute (they've acknowledged this)... How do I deal with this in the schedule? Do I just go with the lastest information I have prior to submitting the claim?

 

 

 

3. The wording on the POC suggests that the daily rate simply refers to the 8% statutory. However, they are still charging me interest on the account. Is it possible to include this at a daily rate?

 

 

 

4. If they're continuing to apply charges and hassling me on the phone demanding payment, I must have a good case for reporting them to the FOS?

Thanks in advance for the advice!

 

 

J

[slick132]

1. What should I use for the claim date (I will submit the POC around the 22/11)?

Update your SOC to include all chgs to date, use that date and file N1.

 

2. Also, they are continuing to rack up charges/interest despite the fact that the account is under dispute (they've acknowledged this)... How do I deal with this in the schedule? Do I just go with the lastest information I have prior to submitting the claim?

When you submit your Form N1, include all charges (as said above) on SOC. Any subsequent charges may be settled by agreement if BC want to settle, or you'll have to issue court proceedings again.

 

 

3. The wording on the POC suggests that the daily rate simply refers to the 8% statutory. However, they are still charging me interest on the account. Is it possible to include this at a daily rate?

Para 19(3) covers this. The daily rate is your Total Fees Amount x 0.0002% = xx pence per day

 

 

4. If they're continuing to apply charges and hassling me on the phone demanding payment, I must have a good case for reporting them to the FOS?

I'll come back with link to info which you can use to warn them off while debt is in dispute.

 

Slick

[orge]

Thanks for the quick reply, Slick. I've amended the claim as per your recommendations!

 

J

[slick132]

Hi Orge,

 

Further to my last post, item 4:-

 

Read here - http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...dit/oft664.pdf - and consider using one or more of these sections:-

 

2.6(a) re frequent contact

 

2.6.(h) ignoring your contention that debt is in dispute

 

2.8(i) failing to investigate/provide details (re missing info they still owe you)

 

2.8(k) not ceasing collection while investigating queried or disputed amount.

[orge]

Well, it appears that the last few letters/phone calls have finally stopped there incessant ringing. However, now the cheeky bastards have served me with a default notice. They're threatening to:

 

Pass my details onto a debt collection agency who will issue a formal demand and, possibly, legal action - with their useless CCA, I would like to see them try!!

 

 

Register details of my account with a credit reference agency.

 

 

They give me until 1/12 to make a payment. Clearly, I'm not going to be making a payment but how should I respond to this? The deadline for response to my LBA is the 22nd, so I will get my POC into the court on that day. Will that be quick enough to nip this in the bud?

 

 

Many thanks,

 

 

J

[slick132]

Hi Orge,

 

If this threatening letter is from BC, you could take that as their decision NOT to refund and File at Court with Form N1, SOC, POC etc. immediately.

 

If it's from Mercers, wait for LBA time limit.

 

Whoever this letter is from, write back pointing out they are in clear breach of OFT Debt Collection Guidelines, Sections 2.6(h) and 2.8(k) and you are therefore lodging an official complaint to your local Trading Standards Office and the OFT.

 

Then send letters of complaint to both bodies.

 

Slick

[orge]

Thanks again, Slick.

 

It's from Mercer's, so I'll follow your advice and file a complaint. I've found the appropriate OFT form and contact details for my nearest trading standards office.

 

 

Let's bring it on!

 

 

J

[orge]

I'm gonna get going on my letters of complaint today. I was wondering if I should including the unenforceable CCA in my information to the OFT+TS? I'm trying to decide when I should play this card for maximum effect.

 

Are they digging themselves a deeper hole by continuing to pursue me with legally threatening letters etc? They must be aware that agreements prior to year xxxx are invalid but they're trying to pass them off as nforceable? This sounds pretty dodgy...

 

If I play it now, I figure there's evidence for OFT guideline breaches under:

 

 

Unenforceable CCA

2.2 (a) (b)*2.4 (b)

 

 

Harassment

2.2 (a), 2.4 (g)

 

 

Ignoring the Dispute

2.6 (h) (i) (k)

 

 

Also, they've consistently misrepresented their/my legal position over the phone - "I've never heard of anyone claiming back credit card charges", etc... Obviously not as strong as written evidence, but worth mentioning? This is, after all, how they prefer to maintain contact with their clients, I wonder why?

 

 

 

It's nice to know that the OFT are going to give them a seeing to, but I would love to get some criminal action going on, if possible! So, do I give them more rope or play my card now?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

J

[slick132]

Hi Orge,

 

Don't bother with "holding back cards to play for max effect". You want you money back and you want them to get off your back. Don't expect justice as well ! LoL

 

File the form N1 at court as soon as your timescale allows - that puts you on a better footing re the OFT rules and puts BC/Mercers in a weaker position.

 

Make complaints to OFT and TSO as well but don't think BC or Mercers will be punished as a result. They may in the longer term, so all complaints made properly by peeps like you will maybe make things a bit better in the future.

 

I would focus on getting your money back (and understanding fully the CI element of your claim) and on keeping them from harassing you.

 

I'd love to think they'll be punished, fined, etc but I just don't think it'll happen in ways that'll help us little guys. Don't expect too much - then you'll not be disappointed.

 

Slick

[orge]

Yes, I can see that "justice" is unlikely to be the immediate outcome from complaints etc - it's all cumulative though. However, they've committed a criminal offence relating to the unenforceable CCA. Passing the agreement off as valid and then threatening legal action sounds pretty serious to me (fraud?)... I would like to know if this constitutes a further offence or just provides further evidence relating to the original.

 

My POC is ready to file for Thursday and they've given up on the calls. If I wanted completely shot of them I could simply write regarding the unenforceable agreement - I imagine they would disappear pretty sharpish. The only reason I choose not to, is that I would rather play this late in the game - especially if this means there will be a stronger case for both civil and criminal proceedings.

 

 

Of course, I am not a blinkered idealist, so I understand that the chances of these institutions ending up in court are slim. However, they pose absolutely no threat to me at the moment, so I might as well give them the opportunity to dig themselves as bigger hole as possible. I can't imagine they would go that far, but what would a judge say if they went to court on that CCA?

 

 

Thanks again,

 

 

J

[orge]

Just a quick status update...

 

 

Have filed N1 at my local court today. I was warned by the counter clerk that it's possible (probable?) my case will be stayed. I pointed out it was a credit card, but the response suggested that this was not perceived to be different - or they're trying to make out this is the case.

 

 

I've noted the threads mentioning the application of stay letter (seems better to write directly to the judge, if possible) and Barclays Legal contacts (Greg and Kate). Will see what happens next...

 

 

How long does normally it take to hear from the court?

 

 

J

[slick132]

The Court will normally issue N1 to BC very quickly - then you wait to see if BC acknowledge and Defend.

[orge]

Let's hope they're as slow as all the previous correspondence then!

 

J

[orge]

Finally, some kind of response from barclaycard... They've offered me the difference between the old fees and their new £12 level. Shall I take it??... Nah! Barely covers the cost of my N1! *They're going to pay it direct into my account, so Rejection Letter 5 will be winging it's way to them tomorrow.

 

 

I've also been thinking about what to do once they've paid out... TBF, I'm loath to hand back any amount of the £2k they've made me work hard for. However, I don't think it's entirely right to walk away from a legitimate, if unenforceable, debt (and I do have a substantial overdraft on my current account). I was thinking that I may be able to bargain them to the following arrangement:

 

 

Remove any subsequent charges/interest applied after my claim date (possibly the date they defaulted on their CCA, but this would be naughty as my claim is asking for interest during this period! ) and I'll pay this sum back on fixed terms over 2-3 of years (at a rate of around £20/month). If there were any further court costs, I would also deduct these.

 

 

Clearly, they aren't going to like this very much but I can't see they have a lot to barter with. They could call in the O/D and possibly mark my credit history with a default, but I imagine I could complain about these as punitive to the FOS?

 

 

Opinions? As stated, I'm not trying to walk away/shirk this debt but I feel that Mercer's/Barclaycard have behaved pretty appallingly throughout this process/period. As such, I do not feel particularly charitable towards them and would like to make it very clear that this sort of bollock's does not endear them to customer's - it's also rather foolish when they're own legal position is so tenuous.

 

 

J

[slick132]

Hi Orge,

 

Send your letter of rejection and the wait to see how they respond to you Filing your claim.

 

Whats the approx debt on the BC now, before the refund of approx £2K ? (I assume it's approx £2,600).

 

Please break down the chgs and int't you're claiming

 

If you are willing to acknowledge and service the remaining debt, I don't know if you have any hold over them with the late CCA aspect. That may only play a part if you are prepared to try and have the debt written down to zero re unenforceability.

 

Certainly worth considering though, because they won't take kindly to the CI element of your claim.

[orge]

Hi Slick,

 

My debt is around £500 and my claim is for just over £2000. Of this, £800 is charges, £700 is CI and £400 is s69.

 

So, if I make an agreement would that be seen as "acknowledging and servicing" the debt - or is this relating to claiming the charges (i.e. my POC state that we entered into an agreement regulated by the act)? Would this make the debt enforceable again or just make it possible for them to apply for a judge to make an enforcement order?

 

 

Thanks again,

 

 

J