SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[JonCris]

Pam I too agree with you in that the court made a mistake in that they allowed the creditor undue enrichment despite their agreement being unlawful. the fact that you had paid the money willingly is not really relevant......if it was we would not be able to recover past penalty charges.........We need to see such claims going higher up the food chain

[un1boy]

Pam I too agree with you in that the court made a mistake in that they allowed the creditor undue enrichment despite their agreement being unlawful. the fact that you had paid the money willingly is not really relevant......if it was we would not be able to recover past penalty charges.........We need to see such claims going higher up the food chain

 

And, you haven't really paid them voluntarily - you have paid them because they threatened legal action/default action etc if you do not pay!

[un1boy]

I am right in thinking that if a creditor supplies a copy of an agreement within the time period, but no statement of account and no terms and conditions that were relevant at the time and you report them to TS etc that you do have acknowledge that a debt is there?

 

Otherwise this could be construed as fraud, couldn't it?

 

I have an application form sent to me and then another document which is the agreement, no terms and no statement of account.

 

What happens if they apply for a court order now to enforce it? Does a Jusge HAVE to prosecute them for their criminality?

[InKogneeToh]

And, you haven't really paid them voluntarily - you have paid them because they threatened legal action/default action etc if you do not pay!

 

Well in my particular case I had not paid them for a while and nothing whilst they were demanding money from me. The account was not passed to a DCA - it was Paragon Personal Finance (need I say more?). The only payments made where those via DD whilst I was paying normally at full rate.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Pam I too agree with you in that the court made a mistake in that they allowed the creditor undue enrichment despite their agreement being unlawful. the fact that you had paid the money willingly is not really relevant......if it was we would not be able to recover past penalty charges.........We need to see such claims going higher up the food chain

 

Hi JonCris

 

I did appeal the initial decision and this was then heard by a circuit judge but he upheld the judgment.

 

I pleaded a full case on unjust enrichment/profit by wrongdoing/mistake of law/fact and the purpose of the CCA but all to no avail.

 

To be honest, I think the county court had little or no experience of this type of claim and were basing their reasoning more on contract law in general than on the specific subject.

 

In the first instance, PPF tried to get my claim struck out as they said that I could not claim under mistake of law. I wiped the grin off their faces by citing the HL Kleinwort Benson judgment that proved them wrong. Neither their solicitor or the judge had heard of this judgment and had to go and look it up!

 

Penelope Wilson won by taking her claim higher - I just wish I could have done the same. By the way, she is a serial CCA agreement challenger - I'm sure I've seen at least 3 different claims by her (all won!).

 

Regards, Pam

[un1boy]

Well in my particular case I had not paid them for a while and nothing whilst they were demanding money from me. The account was not passed to a DCA - it was Paragon Personal Finance (need I say more?). The only payments made where those via DD whilst I was paying normally at full rate.

 

Regards, Pam

 

I understand, but what I am saying is that if you get a document through the post saying, please pay this, it normally will say that if you don't pay, they will default you and commence legal proceedings against you - therefore, you haven't necessarily paid voluntarily!!

[un1boy]

Penelope Wilson won by taking her claim higher - I just wish I could have done the same. By the way, she is a serial CCA agreement challenger - I'm sure I've seen at least 3 different claims by her (all won!).

 

Any idea where we can find a reference to her claims?

[InKogneeToh]

I understand, but what I am saying is that if you get a document through the post saying, please pay this, it normally will say that if you don't pay, they will default you and commence legal proceedings against you - therefore, you haven't necessarily paid voluntarily!!

 

Hi

 

Yes I agree, but in my case I was not getting bills/statements etc. It was just being taken from my bank account monthly by DD.

 

My argument in court was that I may have paid 'voluntarily' but that was BEFORE I realised that I had no legal obligation to do so and that therefore I had paid under a mistake of law/fact. The court's response was that the agreement was still valid (not unlawful, just unenforceable) and therefore there was no mistake - just no enforcement action could be taken if I hadn't paid!

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong in my opinion but that was the judgment!

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Any idea where we can find a reference to her claims?

 

Wilson v Robertsons (London) Ltd [2006] EWCA Civ 1088 (27 July 2006)

 

Wilson v Pawnbrokers [2005] EWCA Civ 147 (04 February 2005)

 

Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633 (2 May 2001)

 

Regards, Pam

[afa34]

also, if they cannot provide the signed agreement then they would have to pay back all of the money you have already paid them yeah ?

 

let me try this again. can anyone 'prove' they have to repay money aready paid. it very pertinant to AA v JB Debtcollection agency.

thanks.....

[un1boy]

Hi

 

Yes I agree, but in my case I was not getting bills/statements etc. It was just being taken from my bank account monthly by DD.

 

My argument in court was that I may have paid 'voluntarily' but that was BEFORE I realised that I had no legal obligation to do so and that therefore I had paid under a mistake of law/fact. The court's response was that the agreement was still valid (not unlawful, just unenforceable) and therefore there was no mistake - just no enforcement action could be taken if I hadn't paid!

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong in my opinion but that was the judgment!

 

Regards, Pam

 

Oh I see, that is really bad - I agree with you. If the agreement was unenforcable then they have collected money through deception, surely?

[un1boy]

Wilson v Robertsons (London) Ltd [2006] EWCA Civ 1088 (27 July 2006)

 

Wilson v Pawnbrokers [2005] EWCA Civ 147 (04 February 2005)

 

Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633 (2 May 2001)

 

Regards, Pam

 

Great reference, thanks!

[InKogneeToh]

More bedtime reading - may be relevant to someone's claim!

 

Regards, Pam

 

Dimond v Lovell [1999] EWCA Civ 1311 (29 April 1999)

 

McGinn v Grangewood Securities Ltd. [2002] EWCA Civ 522 (23rd April, 2002)

 

London North Securities Ltd v Tony James Meadows & Anor [2005] EWCA Civ 956 (27 July 2005)

[InKogneeToh]

If the agreement was unenforcable then they have collected money through deception, surely?

 

Well that would be hard to prove because even they did not know the circumstances surrounding the agreement. They had bought Universal Credit Ltd and this agreement had been made with them.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

let me try this again. can anyone 'prove' they have to repay money aready paid. it very pertinant to AA v JB Debtcollection agency.

thanks.....

 

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

No, we cannot as yet prove anything because we do not know of any legal precedent that supports this. However, if the DCA cannot provide a copy agreement then the argument is that they cannot prove a debt even exists and should not have demanded the money in the first place.

 

Regards, Pam

[JonCris]

Yes Pam pity you didn't go further with the courts peverse decision........I keep saying this but when a member has an argument that is detailed or complicated then I think other members should attend...........1st as they will be asked to identify their interest it will show support...............but also show the court that the claimant is a member of a large consumer group & the judge risks any such judgement being challenged

[InKogneeToh]

let me try this again. can anyone 'prove' they have to repay money aready paid. it very pertinant to AA v JB Debtcollection agency.

thanks.....

 

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

No, we cannot as yet prove anything because we do not know of any legal precedent that supports this. However, if the DCA cannot provide a copy agreement then the argument is that they cannot prove a debt even exists and should not have demanded the money in the first place.

 

Regards, Pam

[JonCris]

Correct pam.........It's a matter of Common Law. If I unwittingly make payments to you I'm entitled to recover them when I realise my mistake....You can't keep someones money just because they made a mistake by paying you

[InKogneeToh]

OOPS!! sorry!! Double post!

[InKogneeToh]

Correct pam.........It's a matter of Common Law. If I unwittingly make payments to you I'm entitled to recover them when I realise my mistake....You can't keep someones money just because they made a mistake by paying you

 

Unless your called Paragon Personal Finance, it would seem!

 

But I forgot to mention, I had the last laugh as I made a new claim on a different aspect of the agreement (no 2nd copy of cancellation notice) and they paid up in full! (pity I didn't see the significance of this in the beginning).

 

They had already spent several grand employing expensive London lawyers to defend at the previous 3 hearings and so I got my own back on them for their underhand and harassing attempts at debt collection!

 

Regards, Pam

[afa34]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

No, we cannot as yet prove anything because we do not know of any legal precedent that supports this. However, if the DCA cannot provide a copy agreement then the argument is that they cannot prove a debt even exists and should not have demanded the money in the first place.

 

Regards, Pam

 

thanks pam for your reply.

 

i intend to take JB debt Collection Services to small claims court to recover £400.00 paid by a vulnerable couple. i now have power of attorney to represent them, so wish me luck. i have spoken to Trading Standards and they are pursuing non compliance of providing assignment/proof etc, via their various departments. it could be interesting to post my journey to its conclusion. interestingly CAB feel the money is unrecoverable:-( ...we will see.

 

alan.

[un1boy]

Unless your called Paragon Personal Finance, it would seem!

 

But I forgot to mention, I had the last laugh as I made a new claim on a different aspect of the agreement (no 2nd copy of cancellation notice) and they paid up in full! (pity I didn't see the significance of this in the beginning).

 

They had already spent several grand employing expensive London lawyers to defend at the previous 3 hearings and so I got my own back on them for their underhand and harassing attempts at debt collection!

 

Regards, Pam

 

I'm sorry Pam, have I missed something? 2nd copy of the cancellation notice?

[InKogneeToh]

thanks pam for your reply.

 

i intend to take JB debt Collection Services to small claims court to recover £400.00 paid by a vulnerable couple. i now have power of attorney to represent them, so wish me luck. i have spoken to Trading Standards and they are pursuing non compliance of providing assignment/proof etc, via their various departments. it could be interesting to post my journey to its conclusion. interestingly CAB feel the money is unrecoverable:-( ...we will see.

 

alan.

 

Yes, the best of luck Alan and keep us updated - we may be able to help.

 

Regards, Pam

[JonCris]

Yes & you should remember that CAB whilst they do a sterling job in many areas don't yet understand this one.......even now some are still advising consumers they can't recover bank penalty charges

[InKogneeToh]

I'm sorry Pam, have I missed something? 2nd copy of the cancellation notice?

 

For a cancellable agreement there should be a statement of your cancellation rights in the agreement and a copy should be given to you at the time of signing. Then within 7 days the creditor should either send you a second copy of the agreement containing a cancellation notice telling you how you can cancel, or a separate notice (depending on where agreement was signed).

 

You then have 5 further days from receipt of this notice in which to cancel. I stated to PPF that since I had not yet (after 11 years ) received this 2nd notice then my 5 days grace had not even begun - so I wrote and cancelled!!

 

Good one eh?

 

Regards, Pam