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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

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      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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Nat West easier than I thought


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Hello all

Firstly I must say thanks to all on this site. I am NOT a computer person but the info I have got from this site has been everything in taking on Nat West.

Easier than I thought because two letters from me and the famous Mr Higley has offered to refund all the charges I claimed, over £3,500 on my small business account. I don't know if to accept this or to continue to attempt to get the over £800 interest which the CAG spreadsheet calculated for me. I don't know if things will change & banks will stop paying out.

I am a natural coward, but I can say to others that the CAG system WORKS. Thank goodness.

Good luck to all

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Hi explorer, welcome on board and congratulations on your early result!!!

 

If you've been offered all charges back after the LBA, you must accept this. The courts would look at your case unfavourably if you refuse their offer - it would be seen as being done just to get the interest.

 

Main thing is - you've been offered a full refund - which is an absolutely brilliant result. Well done!!!! Best wishes, hedgey xxx :p

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Hang on a minute, Hedgey. I may be misunderstanding things here, but as I read it Explorer is simply being offered a refund of the charges themselves. He has every right to also require a refund of any interest that he has been charged on those penalties. He doesn't have to accept a refund simply because it refunds the principle. The interest has been charged unlawfully too. That can be recovered as well if explorer wants to.....Or am I missing something here?

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Depends on what the interest is though doesn't it?

 

If it's the overdraft interest from when charges sent explorer overdrawn/over the overdraft level - then it's fine. If it's contractual - somebody else'll need to answer.

 

However, if it's the 8% interest - this can only be awarded by the courts anyway and to turn down an offer merely to get the 8% added on by the courts would be looked at unfavourably.

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Yep, completely agree.

 

I guess the key is what Explorer is happy with at the end of the day.

 

That said, there's absolutely no doubt that the NatWest interest charged on the panalties can be recovered. Natwest will roll over.

 

Agree too that it's less clear-cut on contractual interest. I'm trying to decide myself at the mo whether to go for it. (Contractual in my case is >£10k)

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Sickofbanks, Never assume Nasty West will rollover. I am into my 6th year fighting Nasty West. Yes 6 years. If they detect any chink in your armour they will attack you very quickly. So beware don't drop your guard.

A person is only as big as the dream they dare to live.

 

 

Good things come to he who waits

 

 

Its your money taken unlawfully from your account and you have a legal right to claim it back.

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Hang on a minute, Hedgey. I may be misunderstanding things here, but as I read it Explorer is simply being offered a refund of the charges themselves. He has every right to also require a refund of any interest that he has been charged on those penalties. He doesn't have to accept a refund simply because it refunds the principle. The interest has been charged unlawfully too. That can be recovered as well if explorer wants to.....Or am I missing something here?

 

 

I think explorer is refering to the statutoty 8% awarded at court stage and i agree with hedgey u should accept this offer

 

any comments welcome

 

scott

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Hello All

Sorry to be so long coming back. The interest I am talking about has not been charged by Nat West, it is the interest figures generated in the CAG spreadsheet.

I am afraid I am not a computer person, let alone a spreadsheet person, let alone an interest calculating person, let alone a ................. Shut up me before I get depressed.

I have nothing to be depressed about, I have a letter from the bank offering all the penalties back !

A bird in the hand.

I will think about it a bit & read over this site to try & understand a bit more.

Thanks all

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Best thing to do, Explorer, read up and understand a bit more.

 

But if the interest is the 8% calculated on the CAG spreadsheet, you'd be as well to accept the offer, as Scott and Hedgey said above, cos the 8% can only be awarded at court stage, so if they've offered full refund of everything else now then take the money, might look bad on you later on if you don't.

 

And you don't want your bird in the hand to flap its little Nastywest wings and bugger off now do you.....

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Hello again

Explanation from spreadsheet template on claiming interest charges. Sorry as you can see I am not a computer person. You are lucky I have not accidently pasted family photos.

 

Interest is charged by the bank on any overdrawn balance. It is argued that had the penalties not been

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

charged the balance would be less overdrawn or even not at all, giving rise to a lower interest charge

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or none at all.

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Hi again explorer!!

 

When you say it's the interest generated by the CAG spreadsheet, do you mean when you've entered a charge it says number of days since offence and then gives you an interest figure (8%) at the side of it?

 

If this is the case, this is definitely the interest that can only be awarded by the courts (s.69 at 8%). And again, please accept the offer that nat west have sent to you. A full offer to refund all charges at LBA stage is a great result and is what we all should be aiming for!! This thread (I think!) explains about accepting nat west's offer to refund all charges at LBA stage (about three quarters of the way down!!) http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....tructions.html

 

So congratulations............. a really good win for you!

 

Hedgey xxx :p

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Hi again

 

I'm getting confused now...depends which template you've used, if you've used the one detailed by Hedgey above, then definitely accept the offer. It doesn't get better than this at LBA stage. Hope they decide to cough up my charges at LBA. I'd be accepting the offer quicker than you could say "where do I sign" .

 

Congratulations - enjoy your money

 

Wendy x

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I am making myself look like a half wit now, good job I am annoy mouse !

 

Am using Spreadsheet 6 Interest calculation in the "Bussiness Claims Basic guide " this calculates the 8 % BUT you don't use that untill the court claim ie columns R & Y. BUT you do claim interest which is an estimate of the extra interest which the bank charged you which they would not have charged you if they had not charged the penalties and made the overdraft bigger.

 

I have just read through what I have just typed and it does sound drivel. I may have to go and lie down !

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Awwwwwww.......... here you go mate - mop yer brow on me hanky!!!!

 

In which case, it sounds as though you've quite rightly hidden the 8% interest column and the additional interest is overdraft interest which you're perfectly entitled to reclaim.

 

Two schools of thought on this - and it's up to you whether to proceed. First school of thought is to say go for it, file at court and go after the overdraft interest as well.

 

Second school of thought is (the one I subscribe to!!!) would the money have stayed in yer account long enough to earn you this interest or would yer have spent it?? And before anybody shouts at me - cos I know this one's been argued to death!!! - I'm just giving him/her both sides!!!!! Don't shoot me down in flames!!!!!

 

I think this one's purely your decision now explorer. If you decide to go for the overdraft interest as well - you'll get loads of support on this forum to do so.

 

Decisions, decisions!!!!!

 

Hedgey xxx :p

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Hmm ... I had some interest on my account once, 2p I think was the most I ever got. On this premise I personally decide not to go for the interest, not really cos I was being noble, just cos it was a bit complicated and wouldn't have amounted to much anyway. Also, my dosh is never in my account long enough to get interest so thought it might be something that natwest could jump up and bite me on the bum with!

 

Depends how much it is I suppose - is it a life changing amount and worth the extra aggro, time trouble etc.... or, if you hadn't claimed the interest in the first place, would you be happy with the offer that's now on the table...

 

Whatever decision you make, rest assured that it will be your decision and the right one for you at the time.

 

Wendy

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No No No No Yes

i appreciate both sides, thanks

It would not have stayed in account long enough to earn interest but as per spreadsheet they would have had to charge me less interest.

Will do as I said and think, which is quite an effort in itself.

 

Thank you for offer of Hedgey's Hanky but some personal hygiene risks there.

You may have had to incinerate hanky.

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Lol explorer............. what you like!!!!!

 

Please say no more on the personal hygiene stuff........... way too much information there honey!!!!!

 

Happy thinking!!!!!!! xxx :p

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In reply to Wendy there,

Yes Yes Yes Yes No

You are quite right, the decision is if it is worth the extra aggro and risk of spoiling the offer I have already got. The interest would be just over £800, but a few months ago I had no idea that there was any chance of claiming back what I have been offered. There are plenty of people on this site much further away from an easy settlement as per the one I have been lucky enough to get.

Thanks for the info.

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I should explain myself here, I am indeed a simple country fellow, only very much a beginner at this sort of forum business, and I think that it is possible that my little hankerchief jest may have been slighty misinterpreted. I do apologise for this and hope that no one finds my remarks more repulsive than they were intended.

Re the Vicar of Dibley, I have to try to imagine who I am talking to on this forum stuff, well you remember the Parish Council meetings they used to have....?

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Sure do remember those meetings...I look nothing like Dawn French (somewhat taller and scraggier..) but have the same warped sense of humour I think!

 

And I'm sure no offence taken by anyone, if there was we'd soon let you know, shy retiring lot that we are!!

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