Debt from 6 years ago and living abroad

[pekingman]

NatWest tried to palm me off with a loan of 1400 pounds for an 800 pounds overdraft since I left the UK in 2000. I wrote and asked how they calculated that amount and asked how I could pay it off on one go. They didn't reply so I wrote again and ditto. That was in 2002. I left it but now want to clear this up, but worry the debt has become extortionate. I have several questions:

 

1. Is it likely that the debt could be written off, and how would I be able to fine out?

 

2. If the debt is passed to a debt recovery agency (likely with NatWest?) then what charges and interest would continue to accrue if any?

 

3. If I want to contest the charges and interest, do I first have to pay off the debt?

 

4. What would your advice be for me for my next steps? As you can imagine, I am anxious about contacting the bank, even if they didn't reply twice.

 

Many thanks in advance!

[dx100uk]

if the bank has not answered you from letters in 2000 then forgt about it

the debt will now be statute barred.

problem solved.

even if they or a DCA suddenly pull it out the woodwork, with say your letter of 2002, you just deny all knowledge & make them prove it, which they wont be able too, sorry mate i was abroad cant be true!

 

well done! one up for the consumer

 

dx100uk

[pekingman]

if the bank has not answered you from letters in 2000 then forgt about it

the debt will now be statute barred.

problem solved.

even if they or a DCA suddenly pull it out the woodwork, with say your letter of 2002, you just deny all knowledge & make them prove it, which they wont be able too, sorry mate i was abroad cant be true!

 

well done! one up for the consumer

 

dx100uk

 

Thanks - three questions:

 

1. Does that mean that I am not in any way liable for the debt?

2. Can't it keep on growing, with interest and charges?

And

3. Is it statute barred even if I have moved and not informed them of my whereabout?

 

[dx100uk]

if the debt is over 6yrs old since your last transaction [money wise]

it is statute barred

end of subject.

 

they would have to prove in a court that you have since acknowledged the debt exists and is your.

 

as i said, me thinks, you have got away with this nicely

forget about it.

 

 

dx100uk

[steven4064]

As dx100uk says, if there has been no payment in the last 6 years then the Limitations Act 1980 prevents them coming after you.

 

s29(7) - "Subject to subsection (6) above, a current period of limitation may be repeatedly extended under this section by further acknowledgments or payments, but a right of action, once barred by this Act, shall not be revived by any subsequent acknowledgment or payment" ((6) just says that a payment of interest after the initial limitation period shall be considered as a payment of principal.)

 

Steven

 

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[pekingman]

Cheers, but sorry to persist - important for me to decide whether or not to contact the bank - how do I know if I have received a County Court Judgment or not if I have not been in touch with the bank for years and moved address?

[Parkvale]

Check you credit rating on Experian or Equifax. They will show if you have any CCJ's

creditcheckforFREE.co.uk - Get your FREE Experian Credit Report

Online Credit Reports and Credit Reporting from a Leading Credit Agency: Equifax

Good luck.

[steven4064]

I don't think you can receieve a CCJ without knowing about it. The courts have a procedure (which we are all using on here). The Claimant mankes a claim which is served on the defendant (you received no such claim). The defendant acknowledges (you didn't). A date is set and notified to both parties.... there is a pattern emerging here.

 

If you think there might be a CCJ, you won't have paid anything off it. Therefore it will show up on the publically available Register of County Court Judgements (see http://www.registry-trust.org.uk/). Start there.

 

If the CCJ is over 6 years old it will have been removed from the register under the Limitations Act 1980.

 

Steven

[Parkvale]

Very interesting info that Steven. Nice one.

[steven4064]

THanks Parkvale.

 

For completeness, a little further information:

 

A judgement is added to the register if the required amount is not paid within one month from the date of the judgement. Entries are cancelled after 6 years but not until the end of the calendar year.

 

(Source: Debt Advice Handbook, Child Poverty Action Group)

 

Steven

 

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[pekingman]

Steven that's great - very useful. But am I right in thinking that if I do have a CCJ issued against me then my debt cannot be statute barred no matter how old it is?

[steven4064]

From the payplan website:

 

__________________________________________________________

Unsecured debt

 

You may have assumed that your creditor has "written-off" a debt if you have not heard from them for a long period. In many cases, it could be down to your failure to inform them of a change of address, but the debt will still exist and creditors are entitled to chase the debt indefinitely (even after the debt has become Statute Barred), however they can only use the legal system to recover the monies for up to 6 years after the last payment was made to the account.

Remember, creditors are still able to pursue an unsecured debt if:

• They have previously obtained a judgement against you (a CCJ);
  
• You have made a payment to the account within the last 6 years (this includes anyone else named on the credit agreement)
  
• You have established any contact with the creditor (this can be a phone call or letter to request a balance or change your details), except to deny that the debt exists.

If a creditor continues to contact you after accepting that a debt is Statute Barred and you have stated that you no longer intend to pay the debt, you may be able to claim harassment contrary to section 40 (1) of the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

County Court Judgement

 

If the creditor has previously taken you to court and you have received a County Court Judgement, you will be unable to use the Limitations Act 1980 to dispute the debt. If the judgement is over 6 years old the creditor may need the permission of the Court to enforce the debt.

_________________________________________________________________

 

Looks like you may be right. You need to find out if there is a CCJ.

 

Steven

 

[pekingman]

Did some more research and had a bit more of a think about this. To crystallize the issues:

 

1. A debt is statute barred if it has NOT been acknowledged in writing by the debtor or if the debtor has not made any payments to it in SIX years. Being 'statute barred' means the creditor cannot legally pursue the debt. This is not 'written off' but pretty much as good as.

 

question 1: what if the law changes and the Statute of Limitations is repealed (for argument's sake): do all debts which are currently statute barred become pursuable, or will the repeal only apply to new debts? Hypothetical I know but curious.

 

2. A debt CANNOT be statute barred if there is a County Court Judgment issued against you. (See the HM Customs & Excise website, "IHTM28384 - Law relating to debts: statute-barred debts" at Law relating to debts: statute-barred debts). How do you find out if you have a CJJ issued to you? Search the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines (many credit agencies will offer this but you CAN search directly from the Registry Trust Limited, "which operates the Registry of Judgments, Orders and Fines for England and Wales on behalf of the Department of Constitutional Affairs").

3. A CJJ is recorded on your credit file with the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines for SIX years (the number 6 again). Then it is removed automatically. (See the Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 3595The Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines Regulations 2005 at The Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines Regulations 2005)

 

question 2: can a CJJ be issued to someone's old address in the UK, even if you have moved abroad and told the creditor/bank?

 

question 3: can a CJJ be issued abroad?

 

question 4: if the CJJ was issued to an old address abroad (say the debtor had moved several times and not informed the creditor/bank), and wasn't received (and therefore not acknowledged/acted upon), can this still be removed after 6 years?

 

4. If you don't want to wait 6 years, you can take steps to resolve the CJJ but it will appear on the file; it won't be removed until 6 years whatever its status (see How can I get a CCJ removed?).

 

question 4: CAN A DEBT BE STATUTE BARRED IF THERE HAS BEEN A CJJ ISSUED BUT HAS EXPIRED OR BEEN SETTLED? (maybe the answer to these is different)

 

question 5: IF A DEBT CAN BE STATUTE BARRED EVEN THOUGH A CJJ HAS BEEN ISSUED AND EXPIRED, WHEN DOES IT BECOME STATUTE BARRED? When does the clock (for the 6 years for it to become stature barred) start ticking?

 

for example, if I moved abroad in 2000, last acknowledged the debt in 2002, then they issued me a CJJ in 2003 - in 2008 the debt would be statute barred if there was no CJJ, but if a CJJ was issued in 2003 the CJJ would expire in 2009. Would the debt be statute barred in 2008, 2009, or 2015?

 

Grateful for any help with these questions.

[pekingman]

 

Looks like you may be right. You need to find out if there is a CCJ.

 

Steven

 

 

Cheers Steven - cross-posting there ... hope my questions aren't too much.

[steven4064]

I am not an expert on this but I'll give you my opinion where I can (and for what it's worth).

 

Q1. Laws are not applied retrospectively - only debts, etc after the new law came into force would be affected. Very inlikely anyway.

 

Q2, 3 and 4. I refer you to my previous post - the answer is to find out if there actually is a CCJ. Nothing else matters.

 

Q4 (again) If a debt has been settled, statute barring is irrelevant. If a CCJ has been issued then the debt is not statute barred. If the CCJ itself is over 6 years old, then a court order is required to pursue the debt to which it refers.

 

Q5 see Q4

 

example - again see Q4

 

It all comes back to you finding out if there is a CCJ or not.

 

Steven

 

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[scott150663]

hi guys

 

If u have had a CCJ registered against u and u werent informed (moved address ETC)u can apply to the court to have a ccj removed from your credit file..

 

I had a £3000 CCj registered against an old address by the inland revenue in my name

 

I didn't owe IR any money and i was empolyed, it turned out that someone with the same name as mine owed the IR and they couldnt track him down so thet registered the CCJ against me at my old address.......

 

That was nice of them!!!! the ccj had been on my file for 3 years...

 

IR gave me a letter there & then (As i wouldn't leave) which i took to the court, they gave me a certificate and the CCJ was removed within 48 hours....(this was about 10 years ago)

 

Scott

[pekingman]

Thanks Steven (and Scott)

 

I ask if a CJJ can be issued to an address abroad since I need to check my file in relation to a specific address. If it cannot be issued to an address outside the UK then I won't look against my address abroad and 'll save £8.

 

Not really sure what you mean in your answer to my q4. I know that if a debt is not acknowledged it gets statute barred after 6 years (unless there is a CJJ), and that a CJJ is removed after 6 years. IF you have a CJJ, does this have to be removed BEFORE the period which counts towards the debt being statute barred starts?

 

Sorry and thanks again

[steven4064]

they gave me a certificate and the CCJ was removed within 48 hours....(this was about 10 years ago)

 

Scott

 

But surely you can't do this with a 'legitimate' CCJ?

 

I ask if a CJJ can be issued to an address abroad since I need to check my file in relation to a specific address. If it cannot be issued to an address outside the UK then I won't look against my address abroad and 'll save £8.

 

Would NatWest have known the address abroad in order to issue a CCJ on it?

 

Not really sure what you mean in your answer to my q4. I know that if a debt is not acknowledged it gets statute barred after 6 years (unless there is a CJJ), and that a CJJ is removed after 6 years. IF you have a CJJ, does this have to be removed BEFORE the period which counts towards the debt being statute barred starts?

 

I think we need to look at all the cases - I think this is the situation:

 

1. A debt is left unpaid for over 6 years and there is no communication, payment, or acknowledgement of the debt and no CCJ has been given - The debt is time barred

 

2. A debt is left unpaid for over 6 years and there is no communication, payment, or acknowledgement of the debt but a CCJ has been given:

 

a) the CCJ is less than 6 years ago (but less than 6 years after the last communication, etc) - the debt is not time barred and the bank, etc are free to chase it

 

b) the CCJ is over 6 years ago - the debt is not time barred but a court order is required to chase it

 

Does that make sense. What do you think Scott?

 

Steven

 

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[pekingman]

Thanks Stephen for your time and thought. To reiterate and clarify:

 

You said a debt is NOT statute barred if a “debt is left unpaid for over 6 years and there is no communication, payment, or acknowledgement of the debt” AND if there is a CJJ issued “LESS THAN 6 years after the last communication, etc” (my capitals).

 

This is right. A debt is statute barred if it has NOT been acknowledged in writing by the debtor or if the debtor has not made any payments to it in SIX years. However, a debt CANNOT be statute barred if there is a County Court Judgment issued against you. This much is clear.

 

What still isn’t clear to me is the following case: where there is a debt of over 6 years old, and where a CJJ is also 6 years old. Stephen, you said “the debt is not time barred but a court order is required to chase it”. Can you please clarify this? Is it or not statute barred? Is the debt legally recoverable? I know that after 6 years the CJJ disappears from the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines. But CAN A DEBT, WHICH RELATED TO A CJJ WHICH HAS BEEN REMOVED (expired) FROM THE REGISTER, BE STATUTE BARRED? If yes, when does it become statute barred, and if no, what is required for it to become statute barred?

 

Some further outstanding questions:

 

i) Can a CJJ be issued to someone's old address in the UK, even if they have moved abroad and told the creditor/bank? This relates to the question of what conditions need to apply to enable a CJJ? What if the debtor never receives the CJJ because the address is wrong/old?

 

ii) Can a CJJ be issued to an address abroad? Important for me since if not, then I won’t need to search on the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines, and I’ll save myself 8 pounds. All searches have to be in relation to a specific address. Yes, NatWest was told my China address, and wrote to me there. (Then I queried needing a loan of 1400 pounds to pay off an 800 pound debt; they never replied and I even wrote from my next China address querying it again and providing my address. Still no reply.)

[pekingman]

What still isn’t clear to me is the following case: where there is a debt of over 6 years old, and where a CJJ is also 6 years old. Stephen, you said “the debt is not time barred but a court order is required to chase it”. Can you please clarify this? Is it or not statute barred? Is the debt legally recoverable? I know that after 6 years the CJJ disappears from the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines. But CAN A DEBT, WHICH RELATED TO A CJJ WHICH HAS BEEN REMOVED (expired) FROM THE REGISTER, BE STATUTE BARRED? If yes, when does it become statute barred, and if no, what is required for it to become statute barred?

 

Sought some more advice on this and have arrived at the following:

 

A debt is NOT legally recoverable if it is older than six years UNLESS A CJJ HAS BEEN ISSUED WITHIN SIX YEARS OF THE DATE OF THE DEBT LAST BEING ACKNOWLEDGED. The CJJ is removed from the register after 6 years, and the debt is then not recoverable, though under SOME conditions it is:

 

A) If the CJJ HAS been followed up by the creditor/claimant but without success within 6 years, the Court will normally automatically renew the CJJ, but the creditor/claimant MUST:

 

1. apply to the court to get it re-issued

2. produce evidence of attempted enforcement action (though through no fault of their own have been unable to)

3. return to the court for renewal IN THE SIXTH YEAR (the year immediately following its expiry) otherwise it will not be granted

 

B) If the CJJ has NOT been followed up by the creditor/claimant, after 6 years, a new CJJ can be issued in exceptional circumstances, but the creditor/claimant MUST:

 

1. apply to the court to get a new CCJ

2. have to show just reason why they were not able to deal with it at the time

3. PRODUCE to the courts a copy of the ORIGINAL CCJ to enforce it

 

The holder of the CJJ can also sell it to a debt recovery agent but must produce the original copy of the CJJ to pass it on. After the 6 years the holder of the CCJ (whoever it is) MUST PRODUCE a copy of the ORIGINAL CCJ to enforce it.

 

But I am not sure if the holder of the CJJ in this case can apply for a new CJJ after the 6 years; not sure if it is the same as with the CJJ which HAS been followed up – ie the holder would HAVE to return to the court in the year AFTER the sixth year.

 

Happy for any feedback, clarifications on this. Still working this through. Thanks.:-|

[steven4064]

pekingman

 

What is the source of the above information?

 

I was basing my thoughts on what is on the payplan website, some of which I quoted in an earlier post:

 

County Court Judgement

 

If the creditor has previously taken you to court and you have received a County Court Judgement, you will be unable to use the Limitations Act 1980 to dispute the debt. If the judgement is over 6 years old the creditor may need the permission of the Court to enforce the debt.

 

That ties in with what you said two posts ago.

[pekingman]

Hi Steven; the info from my last post is from the Debt Questions. Information regarding debt issues forum - I posted there, as well as wrote to the Consumer Credit Counseling Service (CCCS).

[steven4064]

Looks like a good souirce. Do they have anything on the foreign address issue? I'm afraid I have no idea about that.

 

Steven

[FLUFFBAG]

I have an alleged credit card debt from 7 years ago, I have done a credit report check on Experian this week which is all clear, but on reading different articles regarding CCJ's, I am concerned that they could still apply for one against me, possibly in my absence.

 

I have read that the 6 year 'statute barred' does not prevent them from doing this, can anybody please explain this to me.

 

Brilliant forum with so much helpful advice.

 

Thanks

Fluffbag