Scot needs help!

[isidore]

speaking of pms are you ignoring mine??

 

Too busy trying to win £100.48 on the neverending thread again.....

[isidore]

I think they're a PM box magnet for all and sundry.

 

[rory32]

Why not just put a covering letter with the SAR.

 

I have recently discovered that it is likely that you have not dealt with my account in a lawful manner, and, whilst I have every intention of always paying my lawfully incurred debts, in this particular instance I am placing the account into dispute pending the outcome of my investigations.

Your attention is drawn to the attached letter which will form the basis of my investigation. You are requested to fully comply with the information requested so that I can complete my investigation promptly and resume payments on the account if it is proven to be my lawful debt.

I think you could argue that you have now started the complaints procedure. Yes/No? Any thoughts?

 

[Alpha]

OK, I think the first point would need to be (and I'm aware this is a bit late for those currently claiming), get a complaint in to your local branch, and make sure it is recorded, about the unfair charges you have been hit with. This will start the 8 week clock ticking. I know it will tip them off to what you intend doing, but so what?

 

Doing this BEFORE sending off your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) will shave off valuable days, if not weeks from the process, so by the time the LBA stage comes along, you're well on the way to having used up the 8 weeks.

 

I will have a think about a strategy over the next couple of days. And I'm going to PM a mod too as I still have reservations about anything that goes against the site's advice.

 

Excellent idea!!!!! Doesn't help us as we've started but a MUST for any people starting off fresh claims (or me if I'm successful and get the bug for taking on more banks etc!!) Agree with your idea about getting a mod involved, if only to make this advice easier to find, possibly in a particular Scottish section in FAQs?

 

Well done

[Seahorse]

Yes Rory, I think that would work too. Being somewhat informal, but making sure the complaint procedure kicks off at an early stage. AND is in black and white, so they can't say they weren't aware.

 

I know it shows your hand straight away. But lets be honest... by now they are fully aware of why the SAR's are flying in at an alarming rate, so it doesn't really matter.

 

I'm going to be away from the PC for a couple of days, but I should have an idea of where to go next by then. I'll probably start a new thread for it, and just point folks there as and when.

[isidore]

I would certainly run it by a mod and request stickyness for it...

[Mamie]

hi I advised somone to phone the ombudsman today we live in scotland she did and she is going back 6 years with the RBS

[Seahorse]

Did the ombudsman say that was fine by them? This is an encouraging extra bit of news if it is. It would seem to indicate that the FOS will not differentiate between Scotland and England, and will impact on future best advice.

[Atlantic]

Hi all.....

 

I might have misread the various entries here but......

 

1. From my own research I believe when it comes to legal action (or tanglible threat of) then in Scotland, under Scots Law, the claim amount is lower (if you're going under the low-fee small claims system, and not through conventional system where there is no limit set) and the maximum limit is (I think) 5 years, whereas down in England it is 6 years.

 

2. If you do have an English address then you are allowed to take formal legal action under the English common law system. To help matters this is where the government sponsored Moneyclaim website comes into its own making life a lot easier and either way RBS has 2 head offices for litigation purposes: one in London and the other in Edinburgh.You have the choice of the two to whom you take legal action. The addresses are at the front of this website in the "templates" section if I remember right.

 

3. When it comes to complaining to the branch...... I personally wouldn't worry too much - my branch (in Edinburgh) were really ambivalent when I discussed with them and even said "good luck". They know charges are levied from a central computer system coldly and remotely and they say quote "loads of our customers are claiming back charges".....

 

4. Speaking from my own humble experience - I wouldn't get too bogged down with all the issues, like complaining and then lots of little things. I'd do a couple of days (or nights after work) reading up on all the threads on this website (trying to look out specifically for the issues of most relevance/ interest to you) and stick in your two 14 day warning letters and take things from there....... The two sets of 14 days should also give you some extra time to do yet more reading. The main reason I say this was because I found myself dithering and finding lots of little things to do rather than actually start legal action and finally get the ball rolling

 

5. I used to debt collect for (stock market - nothing to do with high street) banks (business debts) down here in London - and the trick is don't be scared. At end of day 99% of time you're dealing with a little working bloke, or girl, sitting behind a desk and computer (like us all really on this website). I hope this pratical image of who they really are breaks down the stereotype of this huge multinational monster...although that is true as well to a certain extent!

 

Good luck alpha, seahorse and everyone else reading this......... this whole bank charges issue made me red with rage when I first heard about it - as all my charges were taken out when I was at my most vulnerable work and finance-wise.....

[Seahorse]

Thanks Atlantic. And this whole lower limit/shorter statute of limitations is where so many of us have a problem with following the general advice on the forum. In most cases, using an English address just is not an option. So we have these main problems: its all very well giving 2 plus 2 weeks limits, but this is pointless if the next realistic option is to complain to the FOS. This necessitates waiting out the banks' 8 week period by which time you should have had a final response from them, otherwise the FOS will put your complaint on hold until that time anyway. The only other option is to take the Ordinary Cause route, which IMVHO should be the absolute last resort, as the risks are just so much higher.

 

So really, getting your complaint registered as SOON as you intend going ahead with a claim is paramount, to allow you to start that 8 week period ticking.

 

However, if Rae May's advice that has been given is valid, and the FOS are likely to rule that even Scottish claimants should be allowed to have recover 6 years worth of charges, then this will obviously allow us to advise that any offer of charges only going back 5 years should be rejected, as the FOS will in all probability be able to help recover that extra year's worth of charges. (I wish I'd known this last week when I accepted 5 years worth of charges on one account. Never mind, I've still another account to go.)

 

In essence then, I think Scottish claimants who have to use the Scottish court system, and who's claims are likely to exceed £1500, should start of on a slightly different tack, with the emphasis on using the FOS before having to resort to court action.

 

This is simply my own opinion of course, and other opinions are more than welcome, before I run a draft strategy past a mod to consider.

[rory32]

I would agree with Seahorse on this one.

Also I would suspect the FOS can get you 6 years back as they are bypassing the Scottish Legal system. Although obviously this needs to be confirmed.

[dangler8]

Spoke to FOS today and they stand by the current ruling, England & Wales 6 years. Scotland 5 years.

Also that complaint proceedure can only be started 8 weeks after the date the bank receives prelim letter.

[Seahorse]

Damn. Oh, well. 5 years better than nowt.

 

BUT. I'd say their advice re prelim letter is slightly erroneous, in that they are assuming that this is what constitutes day 1 of your complaint. Not so if you officially complain SPECIFICALLY about charges even before you get your SAR off. I still maintain that this should start the ball rolling, as you have then kick started their complaints procedure.

 

In my case, I'd complained to my branch and received a negative response. I then sent Edinburgh my prelim, and copied it to my branch, along with a letter to the person originally dealing with the complaint at branch level, telling them I was escalating my complaint to head office level. This was to keep the chain intact throughout the complaints procedure.

[dangler8]

I see your point Seahorse but a general complaint to branch or whoever prior to SAR is really just that "a general complaint" Its only after you get statements and compile charges in a prelim letter do you have a specific request ie refund of £xxxx. If necessary after 8 weeks then you can complain about failure to respond to this request for refund of £xxxx.

I think we should emphisise to members always send SAR, prelim and LBA recorded del, and download and print copies from Royal Mail site of proof and date banks received them. These if necessary can be sent with complaint to FOS.

[Seahorse]

Yes, always to do all that. But, I don't agree. If you complain to the branch about your charges, it is not a general complaint. It relates to a specific aspect of their service that you are unhappy with. If you then take things further to clarify the extent of things, ie you SAR them, and send them your schedule with your prelim, it is STILL the same complaint. Hence my emphasis on ensuring that you maintain a chain from first complaint to final response. They cannot then turn around and say they were unaware of your initial concerns.

[rory32]

Exactly!!

I think it would be very difficult for the bank to try and riggle out of that one.

[dangler8]

All noted seahorse and as always I respect your opinion, but disagree, I still think the FOS will take the date of prelim as being the start point in the claim for refund of specific charges. That was one of the questions I asked FOS on the phone today

[Seahorse]

OK, we'll just need to agree to disagree.

 

Way over 8 weeks since my prelim now anyhow, so I guess I'll not find out for deffo on this claim.

 

BUT!!!!! I've been away at sea for a few weeks. And whilst away, something tried to go through my account that would have taken me over my OD limit by a few quid. But NOW!!!!! It's been tried to to be represented, and other stuff couldn'y go though because of charges, and they've now mounted up to NEARLY £200. BARSTEWARDS!!!!!

 

So. I'll be complaining to my branch (again!!!!) in the morning, and if no joy there, I'll be going through the whole rigmarole again. And THIS time, if there's any nonsense from Edinburgh, then 2 + 2 weeks later, it's off to court I go. And it'll happen again and again until they realise they can't do it any more.

 

Have these people learnt nothing???????

[dangler8]

Hi Seahorse sorry to hear they are at it again, Im positive we will all get a full refund eventually. They have paid out so many Full basic charges claims already anything less will be discrimination, the CRU (Claims Reduction Unit) seem to be dragging things out to maximum time limits now, using different excuses, but the end result wll still be the same.

[Seahorse]

Still waiting for my cash to come in on one account. If it doesn't reach my account by Friday as per my acceptance letter, they'll find I'm no longer Mr. Nice Guy.

[dangler8]

Alpha sorry for hijacking your thread.

Seahorse is this the one you got the offer letter on 19th. Havent gone back to your thread yet but did you send it rec del.

[Atlantic]

here folks - there is one big source of inspiration I found from all the threads - and it comes in the form of a guy called mcuth (as in mcuth vs. RBOS).

 

It's well worth checking out his threads with regards to RBS as although he's based down in England he's really clever in his writing, researching and his "nerve" in pulling off claims with unbelievable amounts of extra added compunded interest - well worth checking out if you're ever slightly edgy or nervous........

[isidore]

Guys, I've come into this a bit late, but wanted to jump back a few posts. Dangler, I understand your point of view on the whole complaint thing, but I think what Seahorse is trying to do IS the route forward.

 

Perhaps it needs a little longer thought and a bit of tweaking but you shouldn't disagree just yet. There is after all no harm in trying this, better than just thinking it won't work. Perhaps you are feeling a little negative due to the amount of time you're having to wait for a response

 

Based on Seahorse's idea, what if the official complaint was incorporated INTO the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request). This is after all the first part of your complaint. On the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) in the templates folder (and I am trying to recall this from memory), it does say if I find any unlawful charges I will look to take them back. Well what if we looked at a way to amend the wording of the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and turn it into a semi-complaint? That has a deadline of 40 days, plus your 28 days make it 68 way over the 8 weeks.

 

OR, I still think that Seahorse's original idea is worth considering anyway. What if you were to send in a preliminary to Customer Relations at the same time as sending in your SAR but don't put any figures on it. Tell them they have 14 days to reply. What are they going to do? Your complaint is officially open because you have sent them a prelim, they will send you a response (as they would anyway) saying are charges are transparent bugger off, then as soon as you get your statements back your PROPER prelim begins "following on from my original prelim dated ...."

 

I think it is a stupendous idea and cannot see how it could possibly be disregarded?!?!?

 

 

EDIT: reflecting on what I've just written, I personally think my first idea is a bit naff, but my progression of seahorse's initial idea is getting us nearer what he was intending.

[Mamie]

sorry just got round to this will not see her till tomorrow but as soon as I find out I will let you know my son phoned the FOS in march and they asked him how far he wanted to go back but he only said 5 years as that is all I thought he could go back, you see when I gave her the number to phone them I didnt say to her how many years, maybe they just ask how many years and its up to you, anyway find out tomorrow

[dangler8]

Yep when in doubt, check it out