Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card

[Seahorse]

Although I don't THINK I can see an interest rate????

[NIDGE63]

Thanks for your help. just going to send them off.

[davefirewalker]

Although I don't THINK I can see an interest rate????

 

Yes I know........

 

that may be the "only" loophole

 

just studying the oft docs again........

 

BTW its a non cancellable agreement (done by post).........made cancellable by the inclusion of the right to cancel box

 

Dave

[davefirewalker]

Seahorse....just noticed time of post 04.21........I thought I was an insomniac..........

 

mind you I have to turn pc off reasonably handy missus cant sleep with me tapping (must get a laptop)

 

Dave

[Peterbard]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been ruminating over prescribed terms, specifically the total charge for credit (I should get out more, I know:eek: ) and want to raise a point for discussion, that may also prove very useful for those individuals whose agreements sadly;) conform to the CCA 1974 and Regs 1983 etc...!

 

On an agreement, lets assume it's a credit card, where the interest rate is clearly displayed, as are the charges for late pmts and going over the agreed limit. Of the many agreements I have looked at, nowhere can I find a statement to the effect that interest will be levied on said charges. This will not come as a surprise to anyone I dare say. The point is, the CCA 1974 is very specific and whilst I may seem like I'm being pedantic, if it's not in the contract, it cannot be added, but it should form part of the TCC otherwise people are being deceived. It may also provide an argument as to the enforceability of the agreement as it should be stated clearly that interest will be levied.

 

It may seem like an obvious point that interest will accrue on said charges, but the banks and c/c's don't have to add interest but they do nevertheless! Being the cynic I am as far as the banks and c/c's are concerned, I believe it is policy not to disclose this fact in the T&C's, as maybe even the hierarchy within these Companies think including it is a p*** take too far, even for them!

 

All comments welcomed and appreciated...!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

HI

 

This is a very interesting and under researched aspect on this thread IMHO, I am sure that behind the scenes the brains are liooking at this, i am also very interested in any comments and shall research as best I can.

 

Regards

Peter

[Laiste]

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for replying to my post.

 

I have recently obtained the definitive works on consumer credit by Professor Goode and the more I read, the more I am convinced there is an angle here. When you consider that the CCA 1974 was enacted to protect consumers, and the Regs made under the Act demands of creditors strict compliance with its provisions; it could hardly be considered in keeping with the spirit and more importantly the words of the legislation, if, as a part of the contract interest is added to charges, without it being stipulated in the T&C's and more importantly in the TCC! Given the revenue that banks and c/c's could conceivably generate in interest alone, perhaps from people who repeatedly "offend" in their opinion, I am positive that such deceptive charging was exactly the sort of exploitation that the Act sought to eradicate!

 

In my view, this is an even more underhand method of parting customers from their money by the banks! The revolvers, as the banks and c/c's affectionately(?) call customers who essentially borrow constantly and only ever pay the minimum, who also miss pmts, earn these companies fortunes! That's why for the most part, they are oh so happy to chuck money and cards at people, because one way or another they'll make you pay.....and the non disclosure of interest on charges at whatever rate it might be, is a perfect way to conceal what they are taking unlawfully!

 

Therein lies the irony, they can earn lots of money on charges that should never have been levied in the 1st place, priceless! Deep breath and relax....end of rant!

 

I have cases coming up and I will be putting this argument forward strenuously! I do enjoy a good fight!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[ian1969uk]

Laiste, I think you're right here.

 

A CC company says they will make a charge of £12.00 for late payment for instance. Nowhere does it say that they will charge £12.00 + interest, but they do, effectively meaning one instance of late payment could end up costing the debtor considerably more than £12.00.

 

Good thinking!

[ladybird17]

Laiste...please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but I have a CCA here in front of me and, quote

 

"We will continue to charge interest on any late payments both before and after any court judgment"

[davefirewalker]

From my understanding, if the account is in dispute all charges cease, until the dispute is settled or ended. If you go to court and win they cant put charges on anyway.......what are they trying to say?

 

Dave

[ladybird17]

yes, but if you go to court and lose - then they can still add the interest - but that's not the point I was raising really - what I am saying is that on one of my agreements it DOES say that they will charge interest on late payments

[davefirewalker]

Ah........

 

sorry i understand now

 

Dave

[Laiste]

Hi Ladybird,

 

It's certainly brazen to admit to charging interest on the charges! However, from the sentence you've quoted, it doesn't state what that rate of interest is, which I would argue does not amount to full disclosure of the TCC. As you know some info contained in the prescibed terms can be estimated, but the fact that in this case we are talking about interest on unlawful charges, I think a Crt would construe any interpretation very narrowly indeed against the creditor.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[ladybird17]

yes I see your point Laiste, however it is not late charges per se that are unlawful - it's just the amount they charge. So for example, you could argue that if they charged you the true cost, i.e. tuppence halfpenny;)

then they are justified in charging interest on that, because they have told you they are going to. (devil's advocating here)

I agree that the amount of interest is not stipulated.

 

But of course from another angle, in effect what they are saying is we are going to add unlawful penalty charges onto your account, and to rub salt into the wound, we are even going to charge you interest on them!

[Laiste]

Hi Ladybird,

 

The late pmt/overlimit charges are penalties and therefore unlawful in entirety until such time as the banks/cc's go before a Judge to provide a full breakdown of the cost.That's the only conclusion one can draw, given that they have refunded in full the total amount of charges applied to a/c's when asked, or more like forced to do so! You don't give refunds of the full amount of a charge if you believe them to be fair, or their alternative option is to deduct the actual processing cost from said refund!:DLOL

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[ladybird17]

Yes, well I obviously know that Laiste!

 

What is was pointing out that contrary to your earlier post that CCA's don't mention interest rates on late charges - I have one that does indeed state this.

[joneshousehold]

One of my agreements has T&C's that says

Interest will be charged monthly for each statement period on the average daily outstanding balance including all transactions and other charges debited to the account.

This means interest can be levied on the charges for two reason. Firstly it is specifically mentioned in the 'other charges' part. Secondly it says interest is charged on the outstanding balance and once the charges are added to the balance then interest can be levied under the T&C's

 

Does that make sense?

[Laiste]

I was being ironic Ladybird in my last post, I thought it was obvious! I understood your post about no interest rate being mentioned and your "devil's advocate" comments about charges. I was engaging in similar behaviour.......

 

Hi Joneshousehold,

 

I am going to ponder the quote from your T&C's, on first glance it certainly looks like they've covered all bases! That said, in law there are loopholes to be found in all sorts of odd places! It's time to have a poke around and see what I can find!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[Laiste]

I was being ironic Ladybird in my last post, I thought it was obvious! I understood your post about no interest rate being mentioned and your "devil's advocate" comments about charges. I was engaging in similar behaviour.......

 

Hi Joneshousehold,

 

I am going to ponder the quote from your T&C's, on first glance it certainly looks like they've covered all bases! That said, in law there are loopholes to be found in all sorts of odd places! It's time to have a poke around and see what I can find, something hopefully!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[dpick]

Hi just out of interest I have just received a letter from Capital one with Changes to my account from June 2007 main part being an example of what my agreement will look like from then.

 

2 pages each larger than A4 of very small print I think that most of the points missing from previous versions where supplied are met in this version ie my true copy was application form.

 

I think this is something to be looked at by someone with more knowledge than me.

 

dpick:(

[ian1969uk]

dpick, we've seen this. The fact remains that if there was anything wrong with the original agreement, then they do not have any right under that agreement to impose these changes.

 

Which means that this new 'agreement' they are sending out is worthless.

[joneshousehold]

Laiste - to be honest it was a copy of the latest T&C's hence the reason why it looks like they have covered all bases. If I find an older one I will have a look at what that said. Not surprisingly none of my creditors have sent me a copy of the original T&C's yet!

[davefirewalker]

jones - i have t&c from 2003 (mbna) and that term is there.....must be a generic one I would imagine it would be on most t&c's

 

Dave

[evelyndarling]

i dont know if im not supposed to jump in on this thread, but i got this today. is it an agreement or an application?

 

 

any response is well regarded!

[kennyparkroad]

i would say thats an app, but ive been wrong before!

 

wait for someone with more knowledge to come along.

 

kenny

[Cornucopia]

 

Hi, I suggest you remove this as your credit card number is there for all to see!!!

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

 

PS : I believe this is an application form, not a true executed agreement.