Stonelaughter vs Argos Card Services ***WON***

[Movingon]

DPA sent 25th April (coulda sworn I'd started a thread) - no response. This morning however I got my statement and they credited the fee to my account. Here's my response:

 

Dear Sir

I refer to my letter and cheque of 25th April 2006 (copy enclosed). I note that contrary to my instructions, the statutory fee of £10 enclosed with my letter has been credited to my account. I must remind you that under the Data Protection Act 1998 you are required to forward the complete response to a Subject Access Request within 40 days of receipt of the request and payment; my payment was credited to my account instead of being cashed on 27th April 2006. Accordingly, you have until 6th June 2006 to forward the details requested. Failure to produce these details within the statutory maximum time frame will result in a formal complaint to the Information Commissioner.

Yours faithfully,

 

[Movingon]

OK... DPA response; £95 in charges. Am sending a prelim, modified to note the fact that they provided no information regarding manual intervention and can I therefore assume that there was none...?

 

Will post the letter here later in full.

[Movingon]

OK here's my prelim letter; I'm being dealt with at the moment by Val McDiarmid... in customer services. I suspect I'm about to exceed the Customer Services Remit LOL!

 

Dear Sir

 

REQUEST FOR REPAYMENT OF CHARGES

Thank you for your letter of 13th May and enclosures. I note however that while you enclose the schedule of transactions and charges I requested, you have not provided any information whatever regarding Manual Interventions as requested. Can I assume from this that there have been no such interventions, (if so, I requested a statement to that effect) or is this information still being compiled? (e.g. a transcript of all the “Notes” on my account would contain this information). If it is still being compiled I would remind you that you have until 6th June 2006 to completely satisfy my Subject Access Request. Failure to satisfy this request within the statutory maximum time frame will result in a complaint to the Information Commissioner, and may also result in proceedings being issued in the county court requesting an order that you comply.

 

My request

My main purpose in writing however is to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my account since it was opened in October of 2004.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to late payments and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not then you will be pleased to demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put as a result of my breaches in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Additionally it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006; these charges are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise. I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £95 in charges, plus £18.46 which you have charged me in interest on those charges alone. I therefore require a payment from you immediately in the sum of £113.46.

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting unconditionally my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

If you do not respond or you do not respond positively within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

After that will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

Yours, yada yada yada

[Movingon]

OK, had a reply from Argos this morning to my DPA Reminder and Prelim Letter. They seem confused; they don't seem to "know what to do" (last paragraph).

 

Dear Mr Stoneygiggle,

 

Ref: Account no xxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated 15th May.

 

Further to your request for data, I am now including a screen print showing activity on your account including any manual interventions. Please accept my apologies that this was unintentionally omitted from our previous letter.

 

We are looking into the matters set out in your most recent letter.

 

As you have noted in your letter, the OFT has recently released a statement of its position on default charged [sic] levied on on credit card accounts following its review into 8 credit card providers. The OFT acknowledges to date that most of the 8 credit card issuers have not agreed with their views. The credit card issuers have until 31 May to respond to the statement.

 

We were not a party to the OFT review and will therefore revert back to you as soon as we have had an opportunity to assess what effect (if any) this may have on us.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Val Phillips

Customer Service Manager

Argos Card Services

 

Deadline before LBA: 29/05/06 - clock ticking!!!

[Movingon]

Oh, and the manual intervention data which they sent (I was surprised) contains no instance of intervention which coincides with ANY charges... and no notes of any charges being added.

[Movingon]

OK - the following will be sent special delivery on Tuesday:

 

Dear Sir

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Account number blah blah blah

I now understand that the regime of 'fees' which you have been applying to my account in relation to late payments and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise.

I calculate that you have taken £113.46 in fees from my account during the life of the account; I require repayment in full of this money. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs and without further notice.

Furthermore, I shall submit a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading referencing the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on the basis that you have failed to comply with their direction of 5 April 2006 and are therefore not a 'fit and proper person' to hold a consumer credit licence under the 1974 Act. If you do not understand what this means then seek advice from your legal department.

Yours faithfully,

[Movingon]

Dear blah

 

Thank you for your letter dated 30th May.

 

As you are no doubt aware,the OFT's recent statement follows a review of eight credit card providers. The overview contained within the OFT's statement sets out the OFT's view of the principles credit card issuers (not store card issuers) should follow in setting default charges. As explained in our previous letter, as a store card provider we have not been involved in the discussions between the credit card companies and the OFT.

 

In your own case, we note that the current balance is £133.40 and since March 2005 you have failed to make payments due on your account on a number of occasions. As part of having an Argos Card. you are responsible for making the the required payments on time and we have a right to recover from you the costs incurred by us in dealing with your default if you fail to make a payment when it falls due.

 

We offer a direct debit facility when a store card account is opened and many customers find this is a helpful way of ensuring that payments are made on time and no default fees incurred. In order to help you manage your payments and avoid future default fees on your account we suggest that you consider setting up a direct debit facility and I have arranged for the relevant forms to be sent to you, should you choose to do this.

 

We value the relationship with our customers and always endeavour to resolve queries and complaints as positively as possible. We look at each case individually and having reviewed your account we are prepared to make an ex-gratia goodwill payment of £50 to be credited to your Argos account. Our offer is subject to your agreement and confirmation in writing within the next 14 days and is made in full and final settlement of all and any claims you may have against us in relation to the default fees.

 

If you wish to accept this offer please confirm your acceptance in writing within 14 days of the date of this letter. If we receive your written acceptance within this period, we will credit your account immediately.

 

We hope that you find this outcome satisfactory and thank you for shopping with Argos.

 

My reply:

 

Dear Mr Argos,

 

Thank you for your letter dated 9th June 2006, the contents of which are noted. I am happy to fill in the required forms to continue to pay my Argos account via direct debit. This option was not drawn adequately to my attention nor fully explained when I opened the account.

 

However, in view of the various conditions you have attached to your offer, I am unable to accept it even as an interim payment. Therefore, unless an unconditional offer of the full amount of £140.96 (as I note that a new charge has been added to my latest statement) is received before Friday 16th June 2006 then I will proceed with my court action as stated in my previous letter for the full amount plus costs plus interest immediately thereafter without further notice.

[Bookworm]

Sounds good.

 

Does it feel as good as it sounds???

[Movingon]

Hehehe!! You bet!

[blueskies]

If only I had heard about this site earlier. I had trouble with a Tandy storecard about 10 years ago. The account was settled more than 6 years ago so there is nothing I can do about it. Would have loved to get even with all of the companies that have charged me over the years.

[Movingon]

OK, last minute reply to my letter... key phrases are as follows:

 

• When setting default charges we considered that they represented the costs to us of dealing with default and were therefore neither a penalty nor unfair.
  
• Even if a court were to decide that our default charges exceeded the costs we were entitled to recover, only the excess would be refundable.
  
• it was against this background that we arrived at our offer to you which, incidentally, we consider to be more generous than you would be entitled to recover through the court process.

They have therefore extended their offer of £50 for a further 7 days, to be paid into my Argos Account (I don't think so) and in full and final settlement of any and all claims against them (I don't think so). If I don't accept in 7 days it'll be withdrawn.

 

They're trying to seem reasonable, but I think I can show the court that what they ask in relation to their offer, and their offer itself, is not reasonable.

 

I feel a "The defendant is put to strict proof of their costs in relation to defaults on the account..." coming on LOL!

 

One last thing; they seem to think that if they HAVE exceeded their costs, I'll only get back the difference from a court; whereas I think personally that the court would deem the charges unlawful and repay the lot on that basis... what do you lot think?

[Bookworm]

Well, I think that it's quite true that if they were to provide a breakdown of their costs, you would only be entitled to the difference between their true costs and what you were charged. (The system is about giving you back what you're entitled to, you're not supposed to make a profit out of it). So let's say, on a £20 charge, you'd get what? £19.50 back???

 

At that point, of course, one would be quite legitimately entitled to query WHY, when both parties have a duty to mitigate and try to stay out of the court system, they did not make the slightest attempt to make you be aware of those true costs BEFORE going to court, and a judge may well decide to award you the lot anyway.

 

This is, obviously, should you ever get to see the inside of the courtroom.

[Movingon]

So, do you think I have made sufficient offers to mitigate?

 

I think I have, personally, and could not reasonably have been expected to accept their offer on their terms (In my Argos account, in full and final settlement of any claim against them). I think I now have no choice but to issue proceedings.

[mahala]

 

This is, obviously, should you ever get to see the inside of the courtroom.

 

You don't think it's likely then Bookworm? lol

[Movingon]

Filled in an N1 for this as I wanted to say loads.

 

1. The Claimant has an account xxxxxxx ("the Account") with the Defendant.

 

2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges are punitive in nature; and not a genuine pre-estimate of defendant's costs; exceed any alleged loss to the Defendant related to contract breaches on claimant's part; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead to unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £ 126.76 and any interest charged thereon; totalling £145.22,

 

b) a declaration from this honourable court that the term of the contract leading to the application of the charges is unenforceable;

 

c) Court costs;

 

d) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of each charge to 17th Jun 2006 and at a daily rate thereafter of 0.022%.

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true.

[Movingon]

By the way - I included the line asking for the court's declaration that the contract term is unenforceable. After all, it is; and I don't believe it's asking too much. The worst the Judge can do is strike out that line as far as I can tell, or deny it unilaterally. I don't believe it has potential to detriment the rest of my claim.

[ella]

hi, this is my first post

 

i feel slightly embarrassed even thought its not my fault, but guess which shop i work in???? (no embarrassed smiley??!!)

 

it is mystery shopper season and all our managers go on and on and on about is offering the damn argos card!! GGRRRRRR I HATE IT!!! i haven't got the nerve to keep asking everyone if they want to apply for one, especially as i have one myself and am fighting to clear the damn thing!

 

I really hope you get your money back off them

 

I'm actually here for advice on getting my charges back from barclays,am finding my way around the site at the moment. Not sure how best to make a schedule of charges though ? have copied and pasted the letters though!

[Movingon]

Hi Ella! A schedule of charges is just like a bank statement... except all it lists are charges!

 

You would be best putting columns like these (you don't need the dots; it won't line up on the forum without them):

 

Account No.........Date of Charge.........Amount.........Description

77645342.............25/04/2003...............£30.00............Excess Overdraft Fee

77645342.............28/05/2004...............£25.00............Returned Item Fee

 

Get the "Descriptions" from your statements. If you're only claiming from one account you obviously don't need the "Account No" column... and it's easiest to list them in date order.

 

If you put it into a spreadsheet, you can easily have it work out the totals for you... and later any interest you might claim from the courts.

[ella]

Thanks for that

 

so for now, i just list the charges and dont worry about the interest? to be honest i'l be grateful for the charges alone to be returned!! i am crap at maths so it is all very daunting ! not much good on a computer either!

[Still_Asgaard]

Gosh the Argos standard letter, I'm sat her with one right now and they can't get my name right, I'm now Ms . Thae only thing different apart from the name of course is the amounts. Hope you get your dosh back.

[Movingon]

OK I received a call from Argos Card Services solicitor today, Neil Plankton (can't remember his ACTUAL name) or something.

 

"Hello I was looking for Tom Stoneygiggle"

"Who's speaking please?"

"Hi it's Neil Plankton from Argos Card Services"

"Oh hello how can I help?"

"Can I just ask you some security details?"

"No I'm sorry you can't - I'm not discussing my security details with essentially an unknown caller."

"Well, like I said, I'm Neil Plankton, in the legal department of Argos Card Services."

"And like I said, you're essentially an unknown caller - anyone could say that. Tell you what I'll call the Customer Services line and ask them to put me through to you."

 

"Ermmm... ok" (he was beginning to sound nervous at this point).

 

I called customer services and confirmed his identity by asking if anyone by that name worked in their legal department. I then called him back.

 

He's willing to offer £179.78 in full and final settlement of my claim (including the 30p interest LMAO, which he was careful to detail) and will write me a letter tomorrow. His reason? Well, Argos is a very large company which is dealing with some very large claims and their effort is better spent on those and therefore small claims are uneconomical to pursue... with this in mind and without any admission of liability blah blah blah. Subject to commercial confidentiality...

 

I pulled him up on this; I said confidentiality was not an option when this was my money which I was claiming back having had it unlawfully lifted from me... he reluctantly agreed to remove that clause despite the client having stated that as a condition of the offer. Further to this I said that I would only accept a refund by cheque as after this experience I didn't want to spend any more money in Argos and that therefore a refund to the Argos Card was completely unacceptable.

 

During this entire conversation Plankton head was on the back foot, sounding nervous, unpracticed and basically out of his depth. I think he's used to dealing with other lawyers and not with a straight-talking member of the public. So - in a couple of days or so I'll be sending a letter back to Argos and closing another one!

[Bookworm]

I said confidentiality was not an option when this was my money

 

 

A-ah!!!! I KNEW it wasn't just me who said that!!!!

[mechs]

THats my boy Tom go for the throat

[Still_Asgaard]

Excellent, I've just sent a very snotty letter in response to a very snotty letter I recieved..

[claudiaamber]

Hi,

 

I'm just about to start looking at my Argo Card charges - just wanted to ask, what does 'subject to commercial confidentiality' mean? Does it mean if you agree that you can't tell anyone about it or something like that? Sorry to show my ignorance...just want to ensure I understand correctly if I end up in the same boat,

 

Cheers!

 

(and well done Stonelaughter!)