Hi All,

[blimeyboy]

Jen,

What are the main points of the leter so we can look at it and comment advise point by point

[j.barton1]

Hi BB,

1, no fraud. the bank charges are on statement.

2, no concealment, on statement.

3, No mistake, you have not been under any mistake as to the level of chgs paid by you, and a lack of knowledge of the law-that you may,or may not-have a legal claim agains the client

4,sheldon vs rhm outhwaite... this case is about concealment of facts, no facts have been concealed.

5, cave vs robinson...this case refers to concealment of some breach of duty, our client owes you no duty to advise on points of law and no duty exept accuratly to debit chgs to your acc in accordance with the contract you and our client which it has duly done..

They then urge me to accept the settlement offer made previously.

 

hope that helps!!!

jen

[blimeyboy]

Jenny,

Have you received a copy of their defence from the court or have they just written to you?/

[j.barton1]

Yes i received their defence a while ago, i am now awaiting a date/track from court

 

jenny

[blimeyboy]

Jenny not forgotten about you just trying to do some research for you.

[j.barton1]

Okay Thanks,

jenny

[TideTurner]

Jenny,

 

1

Fraud

(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

(2) The sections are-

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable-

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to a fine (or to both).

(4) Subsection (3)(a) applies in relation to Northern Ireland as if the reference to 12 months were a reference to 6 months.

2

Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation-

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if-

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) "Representation" means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of-

(a) the person making the representation, or

(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

3

Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information-

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

4

Fraud by abuse of position

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act against, the financial interests of another person,

(b) dishonestly abuses that position, and

© intends, by means of the abuse of that position-

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A person may be regarded as having abused his position even though his conduct consisted of an omission rather than an act.

Where they have committed any of the above they are guilty. Did they use a code on the statements or provide a full description for every charge? Have you received all information you have requested from them? If any of these then concealment applies.

 

What is your contractual relationship to Wragge and what legal rights have they got to this debt? They were not a party to the original agreement obviously.

 

Tide

[blimeyboy]

well done tide I think That sorts out Jennys whole letter

[Kandinsky873]

Tide

The legislation that you have posted comes from the Fraud Act 2006, which replaced several deception offences in sections 15, 15A, 16, and 20(2) of the Theft Act 1968 and sections 1 and 2 of the Theft Act 1978

(although it does not replace the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud).

 

The Fraud Act 2006 did not come into effect until 15 Jan 2007 and the act is not retrospective..ie an offence committed prior to this date would have to be dealt with under the old legislation.

 

So if an offence was committed in december of last year and only discovered today, the offence would be dealt with under the old legislation and therefore you would need the evidence to satisfy the points to prove that legislation.

 

However the fraud act 2006 does not affect any liability, investigation, legal proceeding or penalty for or in respect of any offence partly committed before the 15th January 2007).

 

An offence is partly committed before the 15 th January 2007 if a relevant event occurs before its commencement, and another relevant event occurs on or after its commencement.

 

"Relevant event", in relation to an offence, means any act, omission or other event (including any result of one or more acts or omissions) proof of which is required for conviction of the offence.

 

Essentially if the offence is a continuing event, as is the case with bank charges then this could be a "relevent event"

 

This is only a small part of the legislation and law is notorious as it continually changes and is open to interpretation on both defence and prosecution sides. Additionally caselaw further complicates matters.

 

This is why simplistic interpretations of the law and legislation is dangerous and I would seek proffessional legal advice. The other thing to bear in mind is that this legislation is so new that relevent caselaw is very scarce and you do not want to get involved in a legal argument with the banks solicitors unless you are a legal proffessional, as without caselaw you are in difficult posistion of legal arguments.

 

Hope this is of some help to you

[j.barton1]

Hi, Thanks for all the help and advice tide and blimeyboy, should i respond to their letter or let them try to apply to the court for the pre 6 yrs to be struck out?

thanks again

 

jenny

[Kandinsky873]

J

Ignore the letter. The contents of their letter is their opinion. It will be for the judge to decide not them and the fact that they are urging you to accept the earlier settlement speaks volumes. After all if they were right they wouldnt offer you money. Let the system runs its course and I have no doubt you will have the full amount in due course

Good Luck and fingers crossed

[j.barton1]

thanks kandinsky,

 

jenny

[j.barton1]

Hi, I'll Ignore their letter, seems like the best thing to do, like you said, if they want to apply to the court...let the court decide..

thanks for the replies.

Jen

[j.barton1]

Hi All,

 

I've had a letter today that my claim is to be transferred to leeds county court. This has been done on the courts initiative, but it is better for me.

jenny

[seboyle]

hi Jenny,

 

I have just been reading through your thread - it makes interesting reading!!

 

I am in sort of the same boat as you - i have received A&L's defence from Wragge & Co and have a court date for 24th May.

 

I am just about to put together a bundle of all my dealings with this claim to send to Wragge & Co and the courthouse. ie: letters, communcation etc.

 

I dont know about u but i'm a bit fidgety about this - do u think A&L will go all the way - your case seems to be quite complicated??

 

Anyway i hope you get it resolved soon

 

sarah

[j.barton1]

Hi sarah, A&L have already made offers which is a good sign, I am getting nervous now though. We've got to think positively, the banks have much more to lose than we have. Now you've got a court date have you had any offers?

 

Good luck..

Jenny

[seboyle]

Yes, I have had a total of 3 offers!! One for half the amount, one for the full amount less interest and court fee and one for the £12 charge difference.

 

I was actually gonna accept the offer of full amount if they gave back my court fee, i was even willing to waive the interest! Their loss.

 

I am so trying to think positive, it seems that A&L are trying a different approach and are really trying to scare people off big time. it's definately working on my hubby!

 

Sarah

[j.barton1]

I know what you mean, my hubby wanted to accept every offer thinking it would be the last when we claimed against barclays we had about 10 offers, we finally let them off with 14p.

we've got to keep going though, we will win eventually.

My claim is a bit tricky arguing the limitations act, i have to keep checking that i am not putting my foot in it!!!

Jenny

[j.barton1]

Hi, Ive had an interesting call from A&L asking why i had'nt cashed my chq. I told him it had been returned as it wasnt for the full amount. He said they didnt have to pay more than 6yrs. I told him it was for the court to decide what i could claim.

He finnished off by saying the litigation team would phone to discuss settlement....no mention of court...but i suppose its for the lit team to scare tactic me. I do feel better now having had a call, its a step in the right direction.

Jenny

[seboyle]

mmmmmmm there are that many claims for A&L at the mo - a lot of people are in the same boat and are just waiting. ur phonecall sounds positive. Keep us infomred

[j.barton1]

Thanks I will, I've sent a letter to A&L and Wragge and Co, just an up to date copy inc interest etc....just so they know what i am asking for...lol...

[wintye]

Thanks I will, I've sent a letter to A&L and Wragge and Co, just an up to date copy inc interest etc....just so they know what i am asking for...lol...

 

Hi J.barton

 

Would it be possible for you to snd me a copy of your cover letter for the particulars of the claim as on my letter of defence from Wraggage they have clause 1 etc saying I haven't provided particulars. (Idid but they didn't have info as to what the charge related to).

 

I have redone all the particulars but not sure what to write in the cover note. I a going to send to judge, A&L and wraggage so any help would be very much appreciated.

 

My email address is [email protected]

 

Thank you so much

Claire

 

Where would we be without this site:|

[j.barton1]

Hi Claire, The particulars of claim are your charges details.i.e how much and when...I didnt put on mine failed dd...bounced chqu etc...they have'nt queried it....

The cover letter should say something like...As requested a FURTHER COPY...of the particulars of my claim, include your claim number etc...

 

I hope that helps...

Jenny

[wintye]

Hi Claire, The particulars of claim are your charges details.i.e how much and when...I didnt put on mine failed dd...bounced chqu etc...they have'nt queried it....

The cover letter should say something like...As requested a FURTHER COPY...of the particulars of my claim, include your claim number etc...

 

I hope that helps...

Jenny

 

 

Thanks Jenny.

 

I sent it off this morning recorded delivery. I didn't bother sending one to the bank as they have my 1st one. I did make a couple of changes to the particulars. I realised I had missed two payments:o and also claimed for two that were refunded to me (so these were the things I added and removed).

 

Do you think this is ok?

 

Thanks

Claire

[j.barton1]

Hi, as long as the total is what you filed your court claim for then it should be okay,

 

Jenny