Countrywide ANPR PCN - in carpark for 10 mins - Disabled Parking Spot - appeal refused by CW - Kingswood Way Great Denham Bedford Bedfordshire MK40 4GH

[mrscsmith]

I went into a medical centre carpark to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge

I noticed all these car parking notices and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking I left to be on the safe side. 

Went in at 15.12 and left at 15.22  10 mins. 

Now I have a ticket as my car wasn't put into the system in the doctor. 

Contravention says Failue to Register Vehicle (I was just going to chemist on site not drs). 

I did put my blue badge up when I went to read the notice board.

Is this legal and do I have to pay it?

Obviously you can read all the small print as you drive in so needed time to check, such a small time frame would prove I didnt do anything else but leave. 

Would that stand up on appeal?

Picture on letter just shows my car going in and out not where I parked up.

Any info gratefully received.

Thank You 

[Nicky Boy]

Hi Mrs,

No, you should not have to pay this and whatever you do... DO NOT APPEAL. You could inadvertantly give away useful legal protection...

Could you please complete the sticky ...

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/391121-have-you-received-a-parking-ticket-please-fill-this-out/#comment-4683610

Also, the quickest and easiest solution may be co contact the pharmacy you went to and ask them to arrange to cancel the invoice.

[mrscsmith]

I have contacted the Pharmacy and they said the land actually belongs to the Medical Centre and not them so they cant do anything about the ticket.

The above thread is locked I cant type the answers in or copy/paste the info. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by mrscsmith

[FTMDave]

The consideration period is 5 minutes, and then grace period 10 minutes, so you left within this 15-minute window.

The private parking company will still try it on and try to fleece you though.

The best thing to do would be to contact the medical centre.

 

[Nicky Boy]

You'll probably need to quote the ref number from the invoice, but don't mention who was driving.

Wouldn't want that getting back to the PPC.

Try using email... post it up here before you send it.

[mrscsmith]

The Medical Centre are not interested said they had to have the cameras put in as so many others were using their space and its between me and the parking company now. 

1) Date of Infringement:  08-11-23
2) Date of the NTK 17-11-23

3) Received 20-11-23

4) NO mention of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

5) 2 photos show driving in and driving out. 
6) Have not yet appealed

7) Parking company is Countrywide Parking

8 )  Carpark site is The Village Medical Centre, Great Denham Bedford 

Other;

Contravention - Failure to register Vehicle;  Drove in 15.12  Drove out 15.22

There was signage around but nothing I could read from the car about disabled parking and I knew there was disabled bays there and I have a blue badge.  This is a new system set up by the medical centre. 

[Nicky Boy]

How new is the system?

PPC's own code of practice forces them to have an introductory period with extra warning signage.

I think a very "to the point" email to the medical centre may be in order here... See what the others think

They are not interested!... Disgusting! THEY called Countrywide in... THEY are responsible!

Could you upload the NTK as well please.

The timings you've given are also within the grace period, again dictated by their own Trade Association.

[dx100uk]

blue badges nor any marked disabled bays have zero legal standing on private land.

forget all that, its that you did not register , if the signs dont say you have too! then get a pix of them all for later proof.

 

 

[FTMDave]

I agree with Nick.

Work calls now but a thunderbolt for the medical centre will be prepared this evening.

[mrscsmith]

Hope this attachment works of the ticket

 

2023-11-17 countrywide NTK.pdf

[FTMDave]

How about something like this for the Medical Centre?

Dear Manager,

Re: parking invoice no.XXXXX

I refer to my telephone conversation with the Centre yesterday.

I agree that it is disgraceful behaviour if someone abuses a car park belonging to a Medical Centre.

However, as explained on the telephone, I entered the car park to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge as I had business at the chemist.

I noticed all these car parking notices and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking so I left to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The British Parking Association, which Countywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow the same 5-minute and 10-minute periods.  Countywide Parking Management Ltd are also member of the International Parking Community which allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  I respected all these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration & grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.

Is this why you employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders to boot who did nothing wrong with unlawful demands for cash?  I cannot believe so.

I'm sure the local rag and the local radio station will be very interested in such behaviour.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.

It is complete nonsense that "it's between me and the parking company now".  You are the organ grinder.  The parking company are your agents.  You called them in.  Their issuing of unlawful invoices which ignore their own trade associations Codes of Practice to genuine users is your responsibility.

I ask you again to confirm that you have had this invoice cancelled.

Yours, XXXXX

Obviously check the above for accuracy as you know exactly what went on. and I may have made a mistake.  Send if off to the manager of the Medical Centre tomorrow by e-mail or Royal Mail (if the latter get a free Certificate of Posting).

 

[Nicky Boy]

Don't know if it would make any difference to the above email/letter Dave, but there is actually another smaller car park at the other end of the building. (Separate entrance).

 

Also...

Google spyview shows a sign at the Centre's car park entrance, directing drivers toward it. (Not very good as you'd only see it if you drove in from a certain direction).

The view is a few months out of date and Countrywide's new signage isn't there yet, so don't know if there's been any changes to the existing signage.

[FTMDave]

Yes, it seems the OP was in the "wrong" car park.  The Medical Centre has its own.  And the pharmacy/dentist's/vet's have another.

However, unless anything has changed from May which is the Google Maps date, there is no reason why a visitor would realise about the two car parks given the pathetic signage, and it remains that the OP left within the grace period.

I've tweaked the letter below to take this into account.  I've also cut down the bit about all the trade associations to make the letter shorter & to the point.

EDIT  @mrscsmith  If you haven't already sent off the letter, use the revised version below.  But no problem if you sent the earlier version.

Edited November 21, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[FTMDave]

14 hours ago, FTMDave said:

How about something like this for the Medical Centre?

Dear Manager,

Re: parking invoice no.XXXXX

I refer to my telephone conversation with the Centre yesterday.

I agree that it is disgraceful behaviour if someone abuses a car park belonging to a Medical Centre.

However, as explained on the telephone, I entered the car park to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge as I had business at the pharmacy.

I noticed all these car parking notices and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking.  I began to doubt that I was in the right car park so I left to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The International Parking Committee, the trade association which Countywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  I respected these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration & grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.

Is this why you employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders to boot who did nothing wrong with unlawful demands for cash?  I cannot believe so.

I'm sure the local rag and the local radio station will be very interested in such behaviour.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.

It is complete nonsense that "it's between me and the parking company now".  You are the organ grinder.  The parking company are your agents.  You called them in.  Their issuing of unlawful invoices which ignore their own trade association's Code of Practice to genuine users is your responsibility.

I ask you again to confirm that you have had this invoice cancelled.

Yours, XXXXX

Obviously check the above for accuracy as you know exactly what went on. and I may have made a mistake.  Send if off to the manager of the Medical Centre tomorrow by e-mail or Royal Mail (if the latter get a free Certificate of Posting).

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[mrscsmith]

@FTMDave
Thank you so much for the above letter, I have copied it and checked all the details before sending.
I will keep you updated on the outcome. 

I really, really appreciate your assistance with this its being a great help.

Thank again

 

[mrscsmith]

Appeal has been refused saying the Grace period is not possible on private land - is this correct please?
Medical centre wont get involved and said I had to appeal to the parking company.
I have cut and pasted their reply below,

Re: Parking Charge Notice Number CPM…………..

Issue date: 17/11/2023

Thank you for your appeal received on 22/11/2023 in relation to the above detailed Parking Charge. We are writing to advise you, that, after careful consideration, we have concluded that the PCN was issued correctly and therefore your appeal has been unsuccessful. The terms and conditions of parking are brought to the attention of the driver by way of signage erected at the entrance and around the car park. The signs state that all motorists must register their vehicle into the kiosk upon arrival and that the car park is strictly for the use of patients visiting The Village Medical Centre.

The signage specifically states that the car park is not for the use of MeikleJohn Pharmacy customers. At the time of the contravention, you failed to register your vehicle into the kiosk at the time of parking. This is a direct breach of the terms and conditions of parking, and you were therefore issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN). Whilst we appreciate your explanation of being a blue badge holder, The Blue Badge Scheme for disabled drivers only allows the holder to be exempt from certain restrictions on public highways, the scheme is not relevant on private land. This can be confirmed by referring to "The Blue Badge Scheme Explanatory Booklet.”

The double yellow lines on the public highway Kingswood Way have been removed, making it so motorists who display a blue badge can park here. There is no Grace period in this car park as it is private land and you are not invited to pay or stay as you should only be parked within the car park if you have registered your vehicle. The car park management system has been introduced to the above car park as a result of the high level of unauthorised vehicles, which subsequently results in patients visiting the surgery from being able to park. We would like to remind you that, The Village Medical Centre is not and never has been linked to, nor shares, a car park with MeikleJohn Pharmacy or any other business within that building. The Pharmacy and its tenants have their own private car park adjacent to the pharmacy. The reduced rate of £60.00 is now payable by 08/12/2023. If payment is not received by 08/12/2023 the amount due will increase to £100.00.

You can pay your PCN by visiting www.payapcn.co.uk or by calling 0333 023 0058. You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. If you disagree with our decision, you can submit an appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) by visiting www.theias.org. Appeals to the IAS must be submitted within 21 days from the date of this letter. Please note, should you decide to submit an appeal to the IAS and it is subsequently rejected, the option to pay the discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount will become due.

Yours sincerely, Appeals Department Countrywide Parking Management

[honeybee13]

So the medical centre passed your letter straight to the PPC.

Please don't appeal to the IAS, it's a waste of your time because they aren't independent.

See what the guys think about the rest of what Countryside have said.

HB

[FTMDave]

Just to check what HB asked.  You sent the letter to the Medical Centre, right?  It is the Medical Centre that have passed on your letter to Countrywide, right?

[Nicky Boy]

GDPR!

[mrscsmith]

The medical centre would not deal with the letter I took it there.
They said to email the parking company which I did same day.

What does GDPR mean?
Does the grace period not apply on private land?

[Nicky Boy]

Oh dear.

Should have told us what you did... before you did it!

[mrscsmith]

I thought it would help to take in person rather than by email but I was wrong.
Sorry

 

[dx100uk]

On 20/11/2023 at 13:11, Nicky Boy said:

DO NOT APPEAL. You could inadvertently give away useful legal protection...

thread titled updated too.

dx

[mrscsmith]

I have brain fog I forget things easy - part of my  medical conditions - sorry
Do I just pay now? 
I dont want to end up paying £100 of waste an appeal and the stress of its if its useless???
Thank You

[dx100uk]

god no!

yours is not the next move.

p'haps it might be better in the future with your condition if you never do anything off your own back without 100% checking here 1st now?

dx