PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid auto rolled music performance licence for online Zumba Classes that closed months before rollover. *Claim Dismissed**

[AndyOrch]

Duplicate posts removed upload is fine.

Just copy and paste that link here with your responses although most of it wont be applicable to this type of claim.

 

Andy

 

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[AndyOrch]

Have you registered yet to use the on line response ? ...you must acknowledge service before next Tues 16.00.

[AndyOrch]

Just make sure you acknowledge service on time and tick defend all...that's all of any importance for now. 

[AndyOrch]

[AndyOrch]

No you are sending and completing everything in your daughters name.

 

 

 

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[AndyOrch]

Yes you cant act or rather accompany but all the forms requests submissions must be in her name.....its her name on the claim form not yours.

[AndyOrch]

https://moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/mckenzie-friend.aspx

[AndyOrch]

Yes they could withdraw or discontinue but that is usually on the submission of a good defence. No a counter claim can still continue as a separate Part 20 claim.

With regards to the contract all moneyclaims normally rely on some kind of agreement or acceptance be if verbal or documented. A CPR 31.14 request can only request documents referred to within the claimants particulars. The claimant fails to mention any agreement or document but instead relies on current legislation IE Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

If you look at their particulars and break it down its quite vague yet careful if not misleading.

1.The Claimants claim is for £105 in respect of an unpaid invoice rendered on the 01 February 2023, issued by the Claimant on behalf of it's members to cover the public performance of musical works at the Defendants premises (as per the terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988) .

On behalf of its members is the salient point, is the claimant stating that it brings this claim because its been instructed by said member's ?

Member's of what ? The whole music industry ?  Who instructed them ? How have they or its alleged member's suffered any loss ? How can they prove she breached the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. ?

Obviously the claim is not based on an agreement so I see little joy in requesting or that the CPR 31.14 would render anything of value.

 

All points to consider when drafting your defence in which you will put them to strict proof to quantify and prove.

[AndyOrch]

On 23/06/2023 at 14:58, Andyorch said:

Duplicate posts removed upload is fine.

Just copy and paste that link here with your responses although most of it wont be applicable to this type of claim.

 

Andy

 

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[AndyOrch]

I would advise you spend a little time researching this get rich quick outfit rather than arguing the process and advice we offer in dealing with the claim.

Keep your eye on your defence due date and start gathering information.

 https://www.justanswer.com/uk-law/jwwii-having-issue-prs-the-company-provide.html

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=PPL+PRS%2FPannone&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[AndyOrch]

 

 

Quote

 A CPR 31.14 request can only request documents referred to within the claimants particulars. The claimant fails to mention any agreement or document but instead relies on current legislation IE Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

Obviously the claim is not based on an agreement so I see little joy in requesting or that the CPR 31.14 would render anything of value.

I didn't say bin it, you asked could you ask for a copy of the agreement. they do not refer to an agreement but they do mention unpaid bill , do you have a copy of this invoice ? do you have a copy of the "the Terms " of Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 ? Which they refer to and imply that they have been breached.

 

That's all they refer to in support of their claim. So I expect if you did utilise the CPR31.14 there would be little response but feel free to still send it and request whatever you wish.

[AndyOrch]

8 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

Is not an agreement implied in the claim? No  Does not the PoClaim rely on the assumed existence of such a document? No only a speculative invoice So you're saying that the claim is based exclusively on a manufactured breach of the relevant legislation?  Yes If that's the case, do the points you raised above about 'strict proof' come into play in the CPR31 Request? No because CPR 31.14 can only request documents "mentioned /stated/referred to within the particulars not implied. See CPR 31 of the Civil procedure rules if you doubt me.

Yes, I have a copy of both the invoice on which the claim is based, and a full stmt of her a/c since inception. Both provide me with solid grounds for an unassailable counterclaim. Excellent and you also have it in writing that she owes nothing as per your recent post ? The legislation can [presumably] be found on-line, so making it the subject of the CPR Request would seem to be an exercise in futility and redundancy. Yes the legislation is readily available on line but they refer to " the terms "  of the legislation that this money is due and that is what their claim is based on .

Now here is the legislation they rely on ...you have a run through it and find which part supports their claim and which its based on  and how they arrive at £105.00

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents

 

[AndyOrch]

The devil is in the detail Particulars of claim are drafted very carefully in a way not to admit any liability nor to give you anything to add to a defence we refer to them as vague and for that very reason. The same will go for an initial defence response which will not commit or admit liability but questions the validity of the claimant's claim.

Well by " terms " that's for you to determine what they refer or alluding to...there are no terms in that legislation that states a breach can be considered a criminal offence or imposed by way of a trumped up fine.

Criminal offences are considered or determined in Magistrates or Crown Courts ...local county courts deal with civil /family claims. This is a civil claim and the claimant is (from reading between the lines on the google search I posted earlier have never actually tried a court claim) so yours could be a test claim...but then they will not expect a defence to be submitted to test their claim so they may well discontinue once that is submitted....but lets see.

[AndyOrch]

24 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

Anyroad, AoS now submitted - a day later than I intended. The jury is still out on whether I'll send that CPR Request. There is nothing they can disclose that I can't find out for myself, and it will in any case almost certainly alert them to an unexpected skill set on the part of the defendant. 

I want them to sleepwalk into a brick wall of a defence, and the less they know, the better.

You have a lot to learn...I would suggest you read a few topics by others on the process of defending a claim then we don't get to page 6 of your topic before a defence is even submitted 

Actually I would send a CPR 31.14 as a general request for all intended disclosures on which their claim will rely upon as lets see how litigious they are and could possibly fire a warning shot that this will not be a default judgment with no response...they will already be aware you are defending by was of your AOS.

[AndyOrch]

13 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

In fact, unless I missed the reply, I'm still waiting for clarification on a CPR31 query asked above: namely, is it appropriate in these circumstances to request a copy of the Notice of Assignment of the debt to the claimant's sol'rs, bearing in mind this is not mentioned (or ever likely to be mentioned) in the PoClaim?

Debt has not been assigned.

What will be helpful for later into the process if you could speak to your daughter and find out how exactly this agreement came about who approached who ? How was it agreed or entered into online phone etc ? 

[AndyOrch]

What defence are you submitting ? Post a draft here first.

[AndyOrch]

Not due until 4 tomorrow requires a bit of work...hold on.

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Okay well I would add...

 

1. The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) Failed to serve a letter of claim pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017.It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.

2.The validity of the speculative invoice is denied. No copyright protected music has been played on the premises since the end of xxxx xxxx, when the claimant informed me that they were no longer able to issue license's for online fitness classes.The claimant is put to strict proof to evidence otherwise.

The claimant was informed of the cessation of my fitness classes at least dozens of times via their collection agents, but my representations to them were completely and consistently ignored.

3. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

4. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

[AndyOrch]

The initial defence is stage 1 to see if they wish to proceed.....if they do then you will be submitting a further in depth statement as will they.

Lets see.

[AndyOrch]

Are you not submitting on line through the MCOL portal ? 

[AndyOrch]

Cant attach anything anyway...

[AndyOrch]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/money-claim-online-user-guide/money-claim-online-mcol-user-guide#mcol-support

To be sent by email 

With the Subject heading defence with claim number

Send to email address

Claim Responses

Claim Responses

Complete Online at:

www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/@justice.gov.uk

[AndyOrch]

There will be a counterclaim fee subject to the value of your Part 20 counter claim. I wished you would have included the CC in your draft defence as it must be laid out in a certain format to be CPR compliant.

True, the best way to claim is to counter claim at the expense of the claimants claim rather than a separate claim.

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Yes please post a copy here for later reference.

[AndyOrch]

Just names...we need amounts dates.