Advice needed - unfair university penalty charge for late submission of thesis

[JIB2006]

Hello all,

 

I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on the validity/legality of my former university's policy of fining grad students heavily for late a late submission of a thesis?

 

Here are the facts:

 

1. I was 3 weeks late in submitting my PhD thesis to my university (mid-October instead of end-September). Mainly due to my having been working full-time at the same time as writing the thesis.

2. The university sent me a letter telling me that i would be regarded as having enrolled as a part time student for a full term as a consequence of these 3 weeks.

3. They then invoiced me for GBP400 as the cost of the tuition fees for the relevant period (1 term).

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

1. If this is a penalty charge, then doesn't the fee have to reflect the administrative costs of the penalty (similarly to the OFT-investigated bank penalty fees)? I can't imagine my 3 week late submission costing the university GBP400.

 

2. I have not received any service as a result of the re-enrollment. For example, i have not needed classroom space, library facilities, tuition or indeed incurred any expense to them except the cost of the letters used to invoice me.

 

What are the opinions of others regarding this matter?

 

Could I argue that this is a penalty charge, not a service that i have unfortunately been deemed to have required, and therefore invoke the "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations Act (1999)" to argue that any penalty charge must reflect the actual cost of administering it?

 

I don't mind contributing a small charge to reflect being 3 weeks overdue, but i think being invoiced for a full term is quite a vindictive, punitive and unfriendly response.

 

Thanks in advance!

[tim2718281]

2. I have not received any service as a result of the re-enrollment.

 

You are having your thesis assessed, and that's a service.

 

If you don't think the fee is reasonable, you can always decline to pay it, and forgo the service.

 

But before you do that: suppose at some time in the future the university were to approach you, and ask you to assess the thesis of a PhD student.

 

How much do you think would be a reasonable fee?

 

Tim

[blacksheep1979]

 

2. I have not received any service as a result of the re-enrollment. For example, i have not needed classroom space, library facilities, tuition or indeed incurred any expense to them except the cost of the letters used to invoice me.

 

Its not their fault if you have failed to make use of the services, similar to if you sign up to a gym and don't go. Also as the second poster stated you have had your thesis marked in this new term so have been using some professors time to do this.

 

If this was the real world and you didn't stick to schedule for a project then the person who employed you to do said project may seek expenses from you - which is kind of whats happening here.

[poppynurse]

Did you apply for an extension? I know they won't take working as a reason to extend but if it was an authorised extension I don't think they should charge you extra but if you didn't then you are probably stuck with the charge. I know my tutor allocates time for marking and if papers come in late further time has to be allocated which is where increased expenses come in I would think.

[JIB2006]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

I think some extra information would be helpful...

 

The charge is a central university charge.

 

The assessment of my thesis would have happened regardless of when i submitted. Furthermore, it is assessed by external examiners, none of whom are paid by the university (to the best of my knowledge).

 

Therefore, the assessment of my thesis has not been affected by the extra 3 weeks. i.e. if it had been submitted 3 weeks earlier, exactly the same process would have occurred, namely it would have sat on my supervisor's desk for a month or two while he contacted suitable external examiners. The central university is not involved in this assessment process. to clarify, the charge has been imposed by the university, not my department.

 

 

I agree that it is my fault that i missed my deadline. However, the costs the university has incurred as a result of this are negligible. In fact, they are essentially nil. The next step post-submission is for my supervisor to contact external examiners to arrange my exam. this is essentially a private matter and does not require the university to do anything.

 

Therefore i think that the charge is unfair as the magnitude of it does not reflect the costs incurred as a result of my late submission.

 

If my late submission meant that i could not attend a previously arranged exam, then i would expect there to be a significant cost associated with re-arranging the exam/booking another exam room etc. But this is not the case.

 

 

I did not apply for an extension as my supervisor advised against it. However, i think this is irrelevant as the requirements for an extension are not quite specific, including death of a spouse etc. Late submission caused by employment is noted as not being acceptable as a reason for an extension.

 

 

 

To recap, the university has incurred absolutely minimal costs as a result of this 3 week late submission. Therefore, i think that the charge is unfair as it does not reflect the cost to the university of my delayed submission. Rather it is a cost of my full enrollment as a part-time student for a full term. This does not fit the requirements of my situation.

 

 

 

Does this reply affect the credibility of this complaint? It's hard to be impartial on this, so i really appreciate non-bias viewpoints. Thank you!

[blacksheep1979]

If the university doens't pay for these external examiners, who does? I doubt very much they do it for free/out of the goodness of their heart. You say that the external exam is arranged by your supervisor and so nothing to do with the university - but it is the university that pays his wages. You are using university employee time that is in a university period that you haven't paid for.

 

Say for example you joined a library that charged you £20 a quarter for its use. They would be quite within their rights to charge you an extra £20 if you strayed from one quarter into another, by even a day, if you were still using their services.

[JIB2006]

Hi Blacksheep.

 

thanks for you comments. I'll try and answer them...

 

External examiners claim expenses for the cost of travelling to a different institution; however, the concept is that they do this for free. Probably because they know they can ask other supervisors to reciprocate and examine their own students at some point.

 

It's part of the job.

 

Nonetheless, i think you miss the point: external examiners would have to assess and examine my work regardless of when i submitted the thesis! Therefore, there is no cost to the university of this process being delayed by a few weeks. In fact, the contact between supervisor and potential external examiner is initiated solely by the supervisor according to his own timeframe (for example, heavy lecturing committments/holidays may delay this process by weeks) and is not a standardised, central university procedure.

 

"You are using university employee time that is in a university period that you haven't paid for. "

The time frame for this commitment is not solid. As i try to explain above, the process of asking someone to act as an external examiner for one of his students is an ongoing, year-round process consisting of informal emails, meetings at conferences etc. Frankly, i still have access to my supervisor, right up until the day of my exam (and actually beyond, to talk about corrections etc.). I am able and possibly expected to hold meetings with him in order to prepare for my exam. In his work hours.

 

This deadline was not a solid end point to the PhD process. I can understand the university's desire to incentivise prompt writing-up, but there are no additional services that i required as a result of handing in 3 weeks late that i would not have required had i handed in on time.

 

i can still use the library, see my supervisor, have meetings with my supervisor etc. right up until i have been examined and handed in my final thesis (probably around next March).

 

This is why i think a £400 fine is excessive and unfair, and appears to be an instrument by which the university gains revenue.

[poppynurse]

Have you spoken to your supervisor about this additional fee - can he help at all?

But it sounds like you can still access services as you are a student till March or have you paid fees for this period already? (I know I've paid in full for my dissertation and it cost me loads - I have to say I won't be happy if they dump a further charge on me). I'm a bit confused - you say former university but surely you are a student until your thesis/exam are finished?

I would suggest writing to the department that billed you asking for clarification and a breakdown of the additional charge, explaining the points you've highlighted on here and see what response you get.

[Guest NATTIE]

Is the £400 for tuition fees or is it for marking the thesis? Is the 3 weeks crossing over two terms or semesters? I am still not sure whether £400 is a penalty charge, the University can withold a degree if there is anything outstanding to pay so I would be careful how you approach it. Saying that, is the thesis completed and has it been marked?

I re read post 1 the £400 is tuition fees for a part time student per term IMHO and I am sure they would stipulate when each terms begins and ends.

Ok with that in mind I have to say that I do not think you have a case if the terms are clearly marked out as the university did not cause the thesis to be 3 weeks late.

[Jimbo44]

On a more general point, (as I'm not qualified to comment in any way on the rights and wrongs of this particular case), I suppose there's a bit of a lesson in the importance of punctuality and also the importance of timescales here.

 

In the commercial world, where I have spent most of my life so far, it is sometimes absolutely vital to the success of an individual and an organisation to keep to timescales etc. If that proves impossible for any reason, then it is surely courteous to seek an extension rather than take one for granted.

[JonCris]

jib Write to the university (after you have your degree) & ask them to justify their fees by giving you a breakdown of the charges/fees. If they don't or you think them unjustified start the proceedure as per this site.

[demon_x_slash]

For Jimbo (my emphasis):

 

I did not apply for an extension as my supervisor advised against it. However, i think this is irrelevant as the requirements for an extension are not quite specific, including death of a spouse etc. Late submission caused by employment is noted as not being acceptable as a reason for an extension.

 

I can really sympathise with you, JIB. I'm in my final year and haven't had enough time to even plan my final project yet, what with keeping up with other modules. I also have no job at the moment because of this and am starting to really struggle with money - loan payment should turn up at the end of next month, thank Cerne - and I think that a lot of people, including people associated with or working for the Universities, underestimate just how difficult higher education is sometimes. I'm slightly older than most of the other students, and have worked full time before; now, with my schedule, it is impossible to find a PT job. What employer wants a worker who can only come in on Mondays and Thursdays between 9 and 3? I haven't been able to find one yet!

 

Universities specify that you should not take paid employment amounting to more than 15 hours a week - however, university students are MILES apart from college/sixth form students, and the little '15hr' PT job at the weekend that served your limited outgoings when you were 17 can in no way cover your expenses at Uni. At the end of it, you're not 'guaranteed' a job, as career advisers and the Government have tried to make you believe over the years; I have drawn the conclusion since attending University that the only thing that can get you the job you want is experience in that field. So what are we doing while the 'best years of our lives' pass us by? Not earning money and working out who you actually are and getting yourself sorted out for life outside education; no, you're stuck in a classroom listening to the lecturer miss her place in her notes for the fifteenth time and repeat herself for the twelfth, in a module you were forced to take to make up the point total, 'learning' about a subject that puts you to sleep.

 

Sorry, this is a bit of a rant, but I am a very academic person; I live for my overall subject (English) and like the idea of University - sadly, the reality of it is very disheartening and induces Black Dogs by the litterful, unfortunately.

 

Getting back to JIB and hir main point: the deadline given for hir thesis bears no relation to the time when it is actually marked. What JIB is being asked to pay £400 for is in fact for someone at the subject School reception to take it for them, walk along a corridor to the prof's. office, and place it on the pile of theses from the rest of the class that are still waiting there. The others' will not have been marked yet either, as JIB's was only three weeks late - it takes a while to arrange external examiners as JIB says above, and I can say with 95% certainty that the above in my post will be correct. JIB, you may have an ultra-efficient Uni that gets work marked within a week of submission, has lecturers who turn up on time or who actually turn up at all, a library with sensible opening hours, a personal tutor who cares...

...but after I pick myself up off the floor from laughing so hard that my ribs exploded, I'll conclude that it is just like the majority of others and stand by my above comments. I don't think that you should be charged for another term if the other theses haven't been marked yet. If they haven't been marked yet, you could argue that you are being asked to pay again for something that you've already paid for - no one else is being asked to pay extra for having their thesis marked outside of a fixed term period.

 

However, if the rest of your class' work has already been sent off, I feel it's only fair that you pay something towards sending it off to the examiner - NOT a full term fee when you won't even be there anyway...

[JonCris]

Clearly if Demons post is correct (& I don't doubt it is) then these additional fees are in fact a charge meant to penalise the student for late submission which bear no relation to the actual liquidated losses/costs & we know what we think of those.

[omicron]

Not the University of Lincoln by any chance is it?

[JIB2006]

hi omicron - no it isn't the university of lincoln, somewhere further south.

 

joncris - i had a final email reply from the administrator involved in billing me who conceded (after i had asked for a breakdown of the charges) that the charge was solely a penalty charge meant to act as a deterrent to late students.

 

I know many people have replied saying that it is important to be punctual etc. and in the real world one has to be expected to make deadlines...I totally agree!

 

I only got advance warning of this penalty in July 2006 - approximately 10 weeks ahead of the submission deadline. (ok, so the information was available online before that , but unfortunately i didn't think to look -the subject had never come up before). Given i'm working full time starting a career, 10 weeks is not a lot of time with which to implement some sort of accelerated thesis-writing initiative!

 

Anyway, the key point i think is that the university has conceded that this penalty is purely a deterrent, and does not reflect any costs of administering my late thesis (btw, my colleagues who did submit on time are no further through the viva/exam process than me).

 

Do forumites think that this alters the nature of my case, i.e. can the same argument as used to force the banks to reduce their late-payment penalty charges be used in this instance?

 

BTW, my next plan is to write to a professor at the college in charge of this penalty system, and failing that , to take my case to the Office of the Adjudicator in Higher Education (i forget if that is the precise name).

[HydraUK]

The penalty charge issue with banks and so forth is founded on common and contract law,consumer regulations and consumer credit law.

 

Would any of these apply to higher education? Do you have a contract?

 

If you do and if the penalty clause wasn't there when you signed that contract - could this be used against them?

[JonCris]

Any charge which exceeds the liquidated losses is unlawful.....contract/agreement or not. The law is founded on common law. Statute merely puts griss to the bone

[blacksheep1979]

The only problem is that universities hold the power to withhold degrees etc if you owe them money and you may find them becoming funny if you try get the money back.

[Guest Battleaxe]

It is common practice for the Universities to charge extra fees for late submissions. This happens overseas and it is normally the equivalent to one semester's fees if your are doing Doctoral Thesis. I speak from the perspective of being a Registrar and a post grad student on active service in my former life. There is extra work in organising the external assessors and so forth.

 

I think you will need to read the fine print in the University Handbook (Calendar).

[JonCris]

Hi Battleaxe

 

Sorry to be blunt but I don't care any penalty fee must only cover liquidated losses & as the payee they are entitled to breakdown of costs & if, like the banks, they don't supply them or are they are much lower that demanded then they are unlawful

[Guest Battleaxe]

JonCris,

 

I don't think this is actually called a 'penalty 'fee and I am sure the University will be able to prove the losses. it would be interesting to see how the University responds. The Universities do this as a service to give the student the time needed to submit. One of my colleagues was paying these fees for thrree semesters until he got his D.Phil thesis knocked into shape. Mine to took two semesters. Yes, we did apply for extensions and this was the fee we had to pay for these extensions to be granted.

Just an aside I used enviligate exams on board warships and aircraft. This took organisation by the Universities concerned together with the Education Corps of the relevant Service involved. The other problem we had with the exams was the time difference, for all students to sit the exam together. Yes the Universities had to pay the MOD for this service.

[JonCris]

Hi I make the point again......If the charge imposed because for what is breach of contract doesn't reflect their losses then it is a penalty no matter what they call it.

 

However I'm sure that with a little creative accounting they could get the loss to match the cost

[JIB2006]

Hi Battleaxe/JonCris,

 

The university have conceded that the charge is a penalty fee, used as a deterrent. When i asked for a break-down of the expenses incurred by my late submission, they were unable to provide any details. I can well imagine that they genuinely have no idea of these; in fact, i would bet that they haven't figured out any costs of this nature, e.g. for accounting purposes (of the sort that would be used in the private sector e.g. GBP 25 to send out a penalty letter, GBP 125 for costs of administering the penalty case).

 

They have very strict guidelines with regards to extensions, namely a death in the family etc. or unemployment. This is another daft point as they clearly state that full-time employment is not a reason for an extension to be granted.

 

I accept that they have to try and incentivise their students to submit their theses on time, but the all-or-nothing nature of the full term's part-time fees as a penalty regardless of how long the thesis was overdue strikes me as being unfair.

 

If it is a semi-arbitary choice of penalty, that they admit does not cover any of the costs of accepting a late thesis, then i think it is wrong of them to impose it.

 

As i have explained earlier, i don't believe there have been any costs associated with my late submission. none of my colleagues that did submit on time have had their vivas yet, just as i haven't. we have all been waiting since sept/oct for the university to deal with the choices of external examiners nominated by our supervisors. i bet that my late thesis did exactly what the on-time theses did, namely sat in a pile for a few months while the painfully slow beaurocracy crawled through the procedures. It strikes me as an inappropriate juxtoposition of extremely harsh penalties for a 3 week submission delay coupled with very slow, typically inefficient internal university procedures for submitted theses.

 

The question is, will the legal argument used to force the banks to lower penalty fees be applicable in higher education...i'll let you all know when i get my response from the professor in charge of setting the penalty.

[JonCris]

Yes it will although the courts will be less inclined towards such claims as it's public money & if such a case was successful in the courts it would open the floodgates.

 

Should you make such a claim the uni would be best advised to do as the banks & settle your claim long before a hearing.

 

In view of present situation & their delay you could always......in the interest of reciprocity you understand........send them a bill (pluck a figure from the air) for their failure

 

Please tell me the professor you refer to lectures in law!

[Guest Battleaxe]

It will be interesting to see what the reply is regarding this penalty. it does seem harsh, but knowing how the Universities work and they do try to deter late submissions. If your Viva hasn't been schedule it does make me wonder. At least you Viva wont be like mine done half way around the world at an ungodly hour via video link.

 

JonCris are you playing devil's advocate again? LOL