Revisited civil claim ***Claim Discontinued ***

[ericsbrother]

the other thing we will need to know is were any of the goods stolen not recovered or recovered in a state that made them unsellable? Ie: were things taken out of their wrappers?

 

The now famous Oxford case was based around recovering costs of store detectives and such and that is why it was thrown out (along with the lack of locus standi for anyone other than the store)

 

. If this is about recovering salaries then it will be a pushover, if it is for damaged goods then we need a breakdown shown in the particulars of claim.

 

If they are not there then the claim will most likely fall anyway.

[ericsbrother]

Then they will lose the bulk of their claim the only amount they can legally recover is the actual cost to them of the goods stolen or damaged. So, for example if you steal a kilo of bananas that retail for £1 the amount they can claim is what the bananas cost them so let us say 65p. they cant claim for lost expected profit.

 

However, as with all of these dodgy claims the solicitors involved hope that the defendant doesnt know this and so tries it on and hopes that the defendant settles before court or doesnt raise the inconvenient truth in their defence.

 

There is no contract between the defendant and the palintiff that would cover case costs which would apply if for example a consumer credit agreement had been signed. Again they know this but you can bet that the soliciotrs are working on this in the expectation they get apid for their time as a result of the outcome rather than charging the store £200 up front to recover £50 because the store wouldnt countenance that for one moment.

 

So, as part of the defence your friend should send a CPR 31.14 request for documents to request a copy of the invoice from the supplier to the store for the goods that were not recovered to ascertain the true loss to the store

 

The goods stolen were not recovered, the bulk of the claim is for what they call case costs, in the particulars of claim, goods total £50, seek to recover £200 for case costs and they don't offer any more detail on that, then the usual they want interest on top, so it is essentially trying to claim money for what they call case costs

Edited April 28, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[ericsbrother]

You still havent named the solicitor or client. It is important to how this progressess so do so.

 

so first thing first, your friend needs to acknowledge the claim and then say they intend to defend in full.

they then need to submit a defence that will include a statement that they havent followed the correct procedures and that the claimant has not provided any correspondence as a pre action procedure nor evidence as to how the value of the claim was arrived at bearing in mind the "Oxford case" has determined that all of the costs claimed here cannot be recovered.

 

It is requested that the claim be dismissed under CPR 16.4. In any case it is denied that any monies are owed.

 

the friend then needs to read up on that famous case and quote it and all of the relevant parts in detail.

Edited April 30, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[ericsbrother]

the she defends it, at least in part for the added costs. i bet the real loss to the company is about £25 and the rest is lost profit and staff costs that are waht is called establishment costs anyway- ie they have to pay them whether peopel buy anything or not ( or steal them or not). You cant tell a customer at the checkout " no one has nicked anything today so we are going to add £1.36 security costs to your bill as an afterthought to adjust our profit margins"

[ericsbrother]

but you already know they cant claim for these and win that claim of defended using the Oxford case as precedent.

Look anyone can claim anything from anyone and ony when the defendant says it is denied will it ever get looked at as to whetehr there is a case to answer.

For may money i would be making it as dificult as possible for teh to win hands down by forcing them to show a breakdown of their claim for losses as most of them arent claimable. as alreadty said int eh Oxford case. peopel dont get paid twice for the same job they are emloyed to do.

 

 

They are making a claim under torts to recover compensation for loss and consequential damages, they claim their actions at the time amounted to a wrongful interference with their goods, The value of the claim is an amount that covers the loss as well as an amount that compensates the investigation costs, security costs and administration costs they incurred as a consequence of their actions.

[ericsbrother]

this is a CIVIL claim for a loss caused by the defendants actions, this has nothing to do with any criminality so admission of theft is not part of the process. By putting theft of goods they are maiking a mistake ( not a huge on) because the goods were recobvered. The defandant dinst stel their store detecive and that is what they are claiming money for.

 

Go with the simple things. they are denying they owe this sum of money, they may wella dmit owing £15 or so but as alrasdy stated the rest is just made up and you dont want to seem to acept that is a good reason for fighting this.

Thank you for the replies, yes i have already taken on board what you have said in relation to that, what i want to make sure i do in put it in the right context on the defence form, im mindful of following the correct procedure for the Contents of defence, so for example on the particulars of claim they put theft of goods, so do they admit or deny it ?

 

16.5.—(1) In his defence, the defendant must state—

(a) which of the allegations in the particulars of claim he denies;

(b) which allegations he is unable to admit or deny, but which he requires the claimant to

prove; and

© which allegations he admits.

 

(2) Where the defendant denies an allegation—

(a) he must state his reasons for doing so; and

(b) if he intends to put forward a different version of events from that given by the claimant,

he must state his own version.

 

(3) A defendant who—

(a) fails to deal with an allegation; but

(b) has set out in his defence the nature of his case in relation to the issue to which that

allegation is relevant,

shall be taken to require that allegation to be proved.

[ericsbrother]

well you go down that route and the person will end up paying the whole sum. You either fight it or you give up and it seems to me as though you want to apply some moral argument and punish this person when that isnt what this is about whislt pretending to help them.

 

the claimant has wilfully tried to mislead the court regarding costs and you want to play along with that. I wouldnt, I would make the comapny show their invoices for the lost goods and to force them to mitigate ther costs elsewhwere as well as per the Oxford case.

 

The CPR 16.5 rerquirements are satisfied because my suggestion covers all of the points without any admission of guilt for theft (that is down to another place to decide) and certainly degive reason for dentying the claim.

Edited May 10, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[ericsbrother]

have you read the transcript of the Oxford case?

 

In your friends case I would admit that goods were taken and not recovered in a saleable condition and that the COST of the goods and hence the loss to the store would be about £25 They would then admit that this is owed plus the court fee of £25/50 but the rest is denied as it relates to potential profit and costs that are nothing to do with their actions (Oxford case).

 

If they then want to accept £25 plus the court fee then well and good and if they dont they stand a very good cahnce of having the whole claim chucked out under the new rules for failing to show a proper breakdownn of their claim

 

You dopnt have to write an essay on each point, denying things intheir entirelty is a defence, if a claim is baseless you say so rather than trying top pick a reason to counter or justify every word of a baseles claim. the points dont ahve to be addressed in order either you havent read 16.5.3 properly and that requires the claimant to prove every point they make if the defence is denial so go about that rather than helping the claimant.

 

So, simplest defence? Deny everything and you dotn ahve to write essays but TBH that isnt a strategy that will win the day. a denial that the sume owed is this amount because ...... addresses the lot where you seen to want to find a differetn reason for each and every clause whether they apply or not.

 

Keep it simple and you wont trip over yourself

Edited May 11, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[ericsbrother]

If small claims basically nothing other than the sols fee for the day of the hearing.

Thjis is the entire point I was trying to make about inflated costs that arent allowable.

 

If I sued you for knocking my garden wall down I cant claim the costs of insuring my house for the last 20 years as part of the damages and certainly wont get anything for my conveyancing solicitors work when buying it. If I employed a gardener and he had to do a bit of work then I cant ask for his salary either as he would be employed whter he was shovelling soi near a wall or pruning my trees- no additioanl expense has been undertaken.

They try it on in the hope that you dont know any better and dont object. The courts know this but it is for you to ppint it out, not the judge.

 

 

What happens now in terms of procedure ? once the defense form has been submitted to the court what happens next so i can prepare, also on the particulars of the claim it states they claim the amount, interest and costs, im assuming costs refer to solicitor fees, what can they actually claim for under costs, thanks

[ericsbrother]

nothing, it is already included in their claim.Usually it states clealry on the N1 form in the box after the amount claimed and before the box for court fees. It is limited to £50 unless unreasonable behaviour can be proven and the benchmark for that is quite high.

have you actually read the claim form or are you translating what you have been told by your friend.

[ericsbrother]

DFont forget at this point you are outlining what your defence is based around, not writing war and peace so bullet points plenty good enough. You ghet to write the book when it comes to exchanging papers at the time ordered by the court and that is usually a fortnight before the hearing date and you havent got that far yet

[ericsbrother]

the person being sued wil have to go to a hearing, you can speak for them if they ask you to be their lay representative assuming the company dont drop the matter now they see that it is going to be defended and questions will be asked about the veracity of their claim. usually these claims are put in to frighten peopel into paying up rather than as a genuine attempt to recover monies actually owed.

they will ahve to pay the hearing fee first and that isnt a sure thing. Keep an eye on the clock in that regard and if they dont pay it in time invite the court to rubber stamp the discontinuance

[ericsbrother]

Yes, but the claim is discontinued automatically when they fail to pay the hearing fee but the courts tend to be generous and allow the to pay up late or to kick off again after they shoudl have been barred from doing so. By letting the court know the clock has passed the time allowed they tend to formalise things a bit quicker. i have known the courts to phone a caimant and remind them they are a fortnight late paying up and that is certainly unfair to the defendant.

[ericsbrother]

my assumption is that as this is a matter that is stayed by the court then somehting has already been submitted by both parties at the time. Knowing what has gone on before will be very helpful. What iI said basically shows the loss isnt what they are claiming for, this doesnt preclude any other matters so do take advice where it is offered. BF clearly has a different angle so it would be wise to ask, even if it turns out that what happened at the time means it isnt applicable. Better to have the knowledge now rather than in hindsight.

 

 

However, knowing who the claimant is may well allow us to give you a killer defence so please say who it is that is suing your friend. If it isnt the store then whoever it is has no locus standi as per the Oxford case and just stating that will see off the claim in its entirety.

 

 

you have been very reticent to give us any facts or information and so i repeat, do you really want to help this person or not? hand wringing over corpses may get you a sainthood but dont help the living

Edited June 7, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[ericsbrother]

Are you misunderstanding what we asked for? the claimant is the person or entity suing your friend, we dont need to know anything about the friend.

Reason for wanting to know this has been made but perhaps not fully. ONY THE PERSON WHO HAS SUFFERED THE LOSS MAY SUE so if a store then the store can sue. If the claimant is a third party (not to be confused with the solicitors acting for the claimant) then they dont have a right to do so (locus standi) so their claim will fail if this right to be in court is challenged.

[ericsbrother]

Can you send me a message as a pm? I have had thoughts and discussion regarding one of my earlier posts that may have a better result than arguing about quantum for damages. You currently disallow people from mailiing you so I cant just drop it on you.

[ericsbrother]

they caught a dose of common sense. Glad the worry is over for your young friend.

[ericsbrother]

they did this because they were badly advised or encouraged to by either CRS or the solicitors. Once the push came to the shove the other parties will have hidden behind a wall and then said "that isnt what we advised you to say" when it clearly was. They were all hoping for a quick kill and when they got to see that it would be defended they cut their losses, which at this point would have been more than they could ever gain.