PCN code 01 just a little advise please.

[adhkar]

hi,

 

my hubby parked on our road at night when returning from work as there were no parking spaces in the 2/3 roads surrounding our house he parked outside the school on our road which has the yellow zigzags and single yellow line.

 

we live in a controlled zone so have a permit for the road, now i'll pay this as he's on a single yellow line so is definitely a contravention but i'm just curious that as he has a permit for this particular road then can i park there or not (i'm thinking you can't park there even though it's school holidays), or could i appeal to the council on the grounds that even though they have recently turned the local area into a controlled zone we are unable to find parking hence why he was parked on the yellow line in the first place.

 

any help is much appreciated but i'm guessing this is a pointless battle and i should just pay up.

[adhkar]

Your post is a little confusing.

 

Was the car on a zigzag, or a single yellow line?

 

If a single yellow, was it parked there during the hours the yellow line is in force (which usually isn't the case overnight)?

 

The part about him having a permit and you parking there is impossible to answer. It is the vehicle which needs the permit, not a particular driver. You or anyone can park a car there if it has a valid permit on it.

 

Appealing on the basis of there being a lack of spaces won't work.

 

i thought i was quite clear, car parked on both zig zag and yellow lines in a controlled zone for which we have a permit (which was displayed in the windscreen), but not in a bay. parked over night and given ticket in the morning which is a controlled day.

 

it was a genuine mistake on my husbands part as he didn't realise there was a single yellow there and thought as it was school holidays he can park there.

 

do i have any chance of appeal or should i just pay it, also i'm not planning to appeal on the lack of parking spaces i was just making a point the recent introduction of restrictions has not eased the parking problems. i'm guessing there's no point in appealing but was going to go along the lines of

 

this was a genuine mistake as we live on the road and when i came home from work at X time there was no parking and due to it being school holidays i wrongly assumed it would be ok to park on the yellow zig zags but didn't notice the single yellow running through it too. as you can tell i have a permit for this area and also live on the same road so i would appreciate if you could use your discretion and cancel this PCN.

 

i'm guessing there's no harm in trying.

[adhkar]

The yellow line and zig zags are independant of each other. The yellow line will be at all times the CPZ hours operate. the zig zags at the time/days on the sign next to them which should say no stopping. If there is no zig zag sign then the yellow line will still operate.

 

zig zags have a 9-5 mon-fri sign thats what my hubby read and parked as it's a saturday, but really he should have known that the single yellow was still enforceable.

[adhkar]

just on another note why would it say tax disc no. & expiry date - unknown? it's clearly dispalayed or is that irrelevant

[adhkar]

So sample appeal

 

dear sir os madam,

 

i recieved a PCN on saturday 09/08/2014 for vehicle X, as i was parked mistakenly on a single yellow line but i was unaware of this as i returned home from work at X time and after driving about a few times could not find any parking within a bay and saw the sign outside the school which stated no parking Mon-Fri 9am-5pm. as it was friday night i assumed it was safe to park there and it is school holidays also. in the morning when i returned to my car i saw the attached PCN and at that point became aware that the single yellow line existed and was in effect on a saturday too.

 

i would highly appreciate if you could put this down to simple human error as i live on said road and hold a valid permit for the vehicle which was displayed at the time of the contravention and had sufficent parking been available in the area i would not have parked there in the first place.

 

quite simply i got it wrong but i'd appreciate if this PCN was cancelled on sympathetic grounds as i will not be making the same mistake again.

 

thank you, your help is much appreciated

[adhkar]

thank you jamberson I'll get to writing that speak then no harm in trying as I'll still retain the reduced penalty price.

 

just wondering if I should change sympathetic to compassionate or not.

[adhkar]

If its in a CPZ they are meant to put a seperate time plate on the syl to avoid confusion such as this.

 

I live in London and I'm sure that the ruling in London is that they don't need to have a plate for single or double yellow lines. please advise me if I'm wrong.

[adhkar]

I've lost in the informal appeal not sure if I should go to the formal appeal or just pay up. I do feel it's misleading to have a sign that makes you think it's ok to park there but it seems kind of risky as i don't know what'll happen at adjudication as I'm sure I'll fail the formal appeal sends the council don't actually read your appeals anyway so the appeals are just a formality.

[adhkar]

my cousin who used to be a CEO is telling me I'm unlikely to win in adjudication either so I'm stuck! any idea if anyone's won at adjudication for this matter?

[adhkar]

any idea how to word this appeal though? they've more or less gone along the line that i was parked on a single yellow line therefore i'm guilty and have to pay, they haven't mentioned the school zig zags at all nor conceded (which i didn't think they would anyway) that the signage can cause confusion. i can't find my rejection letter but as soon as i do i'll type it up and let you know exactly what they've said.

 

also letter was typed up on the 19th but i didn't receive until the 23rd and they say i have to take action within 14 days of date of letter which seems unfair as i've already lost 5 days before even receiving the letter.

[adhkar]

council letter

 

thank you for writing to us. we have carefully considered what you say but have decided not to cancel your penalty charge notice.

 

you were given a PCN for parking on a single yellow line at a time when you were not allowed to park there. single yellow lines mean no parking, except to load or unload. however the CEO watched your vehicle and saw no loading or unloading taking place.

 

the rule applies during the times shown on the sign. the signs governing the syl are not always nearby. inside a controlled zone, the information may be on controlled zone signs instead. controlled zone signs are like border crossing signs: you will have passed one as you entered the zone.

 

parking pressure is high, especially in areas where there are schools, blocks of flats, households with more than one car, or shops that people drive to. so although i understand the difficulties you had trying to find somewhere to park, you still have to obey the parking rules.

 

you can view photographic evidence online at .....

[adhkar]

i can at least see that they've read my appeal somewhat but have completely overlooked the point i made that hubby was parked on the more obvious zig zag lines and that the massive time plate said mon-fri 8am-5pm which is why hubby assumed it was ok to park there.

[adhkar]

thank you green and mean for finding that for me.

 

can I just point out that the cpz sign is only about 6 meters away from the school sign would that still be an acceptable appeal?

 

really appreciate all the help the people on this site give.

[adhkar]

I live on the same road though lol, gonna be kind of hard to say to an adjudicator that iI didn't know it was in a cpz( hubby really didn't know though that he couldn't park there due to the sign posted without another syl sign)

I guess my only defence is that we were unaware that the sign was just for the school markings and not for the syl and we believe the sign should either me removed or a sign added to indicate that the syl has ddifferent restrictions.

it's so much more annoying getting a PCN on the road you live on.

thank you once again green and mean for your input I really do appreciate it.

[adhkar]

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/traffic-signs-manual/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pd

 

page 79

 

However, it

 

would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except

 

where the restriction is no waiting at any time) as a

 

reminder that waiting restrictions apply during times

 

when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign

 

could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. This also

 

applies within a controlled parking zone, where

 

upright signs are normally dispensed with (see para

 

12.2).

 

I can't seem to view the link by the way is just the same as what's written?

[adhkar]

so how do I phrase this appeal?

 

dear sir or madam I was recently served a PCN for parking on a single yellowline during restricted hour's. I'd like to challenge this as I was parked on school entrance markings with a board stating that the restricted hour's were mon-fri 8am-5pm. as there was no separate time plate indicating that there was a different restriction for the single yellow line I parked there assuming it was safe to do so.

in my opinion it is not clear to me as a driver that there is a separate restriction on the single yellow line even though it is in a controlled zone and had a separate time plate indicating the single yellow line times of restrictions been in place I would not have parked there.

 

would add the traffic signs manual bit here? If you could help I'd really appreciate it as I'm really unsure how tho word this appeal correctly.

[adhkar]

so this is my appeal, should i reference the patas case or not?

 

Dear sir/madam,

I recently received a PCN for parking on a single yellow line during hours of restriction. I would like to appeal this as I was parked on school entrance markings which were clearly signed as NO STOPPING, MON-FRI 8AM-5PM,as I was parking on a Friday evening which was not restricted by the sign I assumed it was safe to do so as there was no separate time plate for the single yellow line indicating different operational hours. In my opinion there should be a separate sign plate indicating the restrictions of the single yellow line so as to be very clear to drivers that even though stopping is allowed waiting or parking is not due to the CPZ.

I would also like to bring your attention to the TRAFFIC SIGNS MANUAL CHAPTER 3, PAGE 79, SECTION 9.17 which states:

However it would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except where the restriction is no waiting at any time) as a reminder that waiting restrictions apply during times when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. this also applies within a controlled parking zone where upright signs are normally dispensed with (see para 12.2)

I would hope that you will agree that there was a degree of confusion which is why the car was parked during restricted hours, had a clear sign been placed stating the restrictions clearly then I would not be arguing this case and would have paid or rather not have parked there in the first place.

I would like to request that you use your discretion and allow my appeal as this was a genuine misunderstanding and one which I am in no way in a rush to repeat.

Kind regards…

 

your input is highly appreciated, thank you

[adhkar]

thank you green and mean I'll do that I know I keep saying it but I really do appreciate all the help.

[adhkar]

so my formal appeal was declined too, what should one write in the PATAS form, I'm kind of at a loss as they haven't referred to the PATAS case or the traffic signs manual chapter. I can type up the rejection letter if anyone wishes to read it.

[adhkar]

a copy of the letter they sent, i would have taken a picture but i smashed the screen on my phone yesterday

 

we have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your penalty charge notice.

 

you were given a PCN for parking on a single yellow line at a time when you were not allowed to park there. you were allowed to park to unload but the CEO watched your vehicle and saw no loading or unloading taking place.

 

the vehicle was parked on a yellow line within CPZ, where the restricted times were 8am-6:30pm monday to saturday, as the vehicle was parked at 8:26, this resulted in a PCN being served.

 

Here are the main rules about yellow lines:

yellow lines mean no parking except to load or unload. for double yellow lines, the rule applies 24 hours a day, seven days a week. for single yellow lines, the rule applies during the times shown on the sign.

the signs governing SYL are not always nearby. inside a CPZ the information may be on a CPZ sign instead. CPZ signs are like border crossing signs: you will have passed one as you entered the zone.

yellow stripes on the kerb mean that you are not allowed to park, even to load or unload, at certain times. a double kerb stripe means the rule appleis 24/7. a single kerb stripe means the rule applies some of the time (the sign shows the times). if no days are shown on the sign the rule applies 7 days a week.

[adhkar]

it's basically a repeat of the last rejection notice that they sent out with a little more info on yellow lines added in.

[adhkar]

so what should i write to PATAS?

 

i would like to appeal first and foremost on the grounds that i believe the signage was misleading which caused my husband to park there in the first place. due to a lack of SYL sign he did not realise that additional restrictions were in force also. i would like to also point out that i believe that the council has acted vexatiously as they have ignored the questions i have asked in my formal appeal and have just reiterated what they wrote in the first rejection letter. they have not explained why they have chosen to ignore government guidelines on signage, or the fact that there was even a school restriction sign there which could have caused the confusion. it as if they have not read my appeal and have just carried on with you were on a SYL so you must pay. they haven't tried to understand the situation behind why the car was parked there which was due to misleading signage. thank you i hope you will understand my point.

 

that's what ive come up with but i'm not that happy with it if i'm honest i've written better in the past but my head seems to be empty.

[adhkar]

second try...

 

I would like to make an appeal first and foremost on the grounds that i believe the signage was misleading as there was a school markings sign saying no parking MON-FRI 8am-5pm as my husband parked there on saturday at 3am on his way back from work he looked at the signage available and thought it was safe to do so, he did not realise that the SYL had different time restrictions as there was no signage in the area nor on the same pole to indicate otherwise. Also it being 3am he didn't actually notice the SYL due to it being dark. the signage to indicate the school markings is large and easily visible to motorists and on it's own without further signage in the immediate vicinity is rather misleading in my opinion. as the the government guidelines themselves state: TRAFFIC SIGNS MANUAL CHAPTER 3, PAGE 79, SECTION 9.17 which states:

However it would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except where the restriction is no waiting at any time) as a reminder that waiting restrictions apply during times when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. this also applies within a controlled parking zone where upright signs are normally dispensed with (see para 12.2)

 

furthermore i think the council are acting vexatiously as they have replied to my appeals in a very standard manner just reiterating what they wrote in the first rejection notice without commenting or even acknowledging the fact that there is a school sign there. not once do they mention it in either letters nor do they comment on why they felt there was no need for additional signage as my whole appeal rests on lack of misleading signage. instead they have just given me the standard response of this is what a SYL is for and what the regulations are that govern it.

 

also previous PATAS cases have been won on the same basis of lack of signage as an example is PATAS case 2110111533 in which the adjudicator states:The Appellant parked his vehicle at a location where there are two types of restriction in force: the no stopping prohibition applying to the school entrance markings during the times indicated on the sign; and the underlying no waiting restriction indicated by the presence of a single yellow lone. The sign relied on by the appellant applies to the zig zag markings only, not to the yellow line whose operational hours are ( according to the Council, but there seems no reason to doubt it) indicated by Controlled Zone signage located at the boundary of the Zone in question - which might well be some distance away.

 

This case is a classic example of the confusion that very often arises when a length of carriageway is at some times subject to a school entrance restriction and at other times subject to a standard waiting restriction. There is nothing unlawful about such an arrangement; indeed it is not at all uncommon. However what can so easily happen is that the motorist's attention is drawn to the very large school entrance sign which the motorist then assumes is the only restriction in force. The effect of the underlying single yellow line is easily overlooked particularly where, as in this case, the line is not plated because it is within a controlled parking zone.

 

I am firmly of the view that a Council that wishes to operate this combination of restrictions must ensure that they are indicated clearly and correctly. The latest edition (2008) of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual specifically deals with this situation at paragraph 9.17:-

 

"Where both the KEEP CLEAR marking and the mandatory sign to diagram 642.2A are used on a road that is subject to a prohibition of waiting the latter should be independently signed, with the yellow line to diagram 1017 or 1018 running behind the KEEP CLEAR marking ...As waiting restriction signs are spaced at approximately 60 m intervals...it is possible there might not be such a sign alongside the KEEP CLEAR marking. However it would be helpful to drivers to provide a sign (except where the restriction is no waiting at any time ) as a reminder that waiting restrictions apply during the period when the prohibition of stopping does not. The sign could be co-located with diagram 642.2A. This also applies within a controlled parking zone where upright signs are normally dispensed with..." ( emphasis added)

 

The Traffic Signs Manual is not law as such. However it is very detailed official guidance from the Department for Transport and I take the view that where issues of clarity of signage arise a failure by a Council to follow its recommendations (particularly one as specific and pertinent as the one set out above) places on them a heavy evidential burden to demonstrate that despite the non-compliance the signage is nevertheless clear. In the present case I am not satisfied that it is; and in my view this is a case where, CPZ or no, for clarity a time plate is required on the same post as the school entrance sign The Appeal is therefore allowed.

[adhkar]

too much

[adhkar]

no body have any opinion on the draft appeal to PATAS? i really do want to get it typed up and sent off ASAP. advise much appreciated