HMRC Wanting money my partner doesnt owe help please - we live in NIreland :)

[BazzaS]

Have you asked for a breakdown of what is allegedly owed?

Are the figures based on "determinations" (their 'guesstimates') from non-return of self assessments?

 

Is this income tax? NI payments?

 

With more detail of why they think these sums are owed, more appropriate advice can be offered.

 

If HMRC' believe the money is owed, saying he is on benefits won't get them to reduce the sum owed, only agree a payment plan.

If they are asking for money they aren't owed the key will be in understanding how / why they have come to believe the money is owed, and getting HMRC to reconsider.

[BazzaS]

He informed them that he was on benefit so why would he need to complete self assessment forms?

 

They just send him a bill, no breakdown just a lump sum.

 

This is income tax

 

No NI is due.

 

He has to complete self-assessment IF they have asked him to do so : even if no tax is due.

 

Have they asked him to complete self-assessment?.

What follows applies only if this is the case.

 

If so, and he hasn't, HMRC can make a "determination" : they can assess the tax due, and (Under the taxes management Act 1970) it becomes fact unless appealed.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/9/section/29/enacted

 

S29(3)a

 

So : IF the problem is he hasn't sent in returns that they have asked for, even if he says "I'm on benefits and don't owe tax" :

A) Until he completes the returns, they can work it out on THEIR best guess assessment

B) their assessment becomes fact unless appealed within the statuatory timescales,

C) After 6 years from the return being due, they don't have to re-asses it even if a return is then supplied.

They MIGHT, but don't HAVE to.

 

This is all predicated on them having required him to complete a return and him having not done so, even if he has told them (informally, as far as HMRC are concerned : since it is the return that is their formal notification) that no tax is due.

 

It may seem unfair, but it is the law, and allows HMRC to collect tax from people who are deliberately trying to evade tax by not completing a return.

This is separate to the penalties for not submitting returns.

 

I'm not saying he has been trying to evade tax, especially if none should be due, but this is how this situation may have arisen.

[BazzaS]

So im assuming the best corse of action is to ask for self assesment forms!?

 

They havent sent him any to fill in. Should i put that in my letter, that he request the relevent forms?

I dont think 6 years have passed.

 

Thank you for your help

 

Did he submit returns and if not, are HMRC asking for them.

If not,I may be barking up the wrong tree ...you need to find out the breakdown of what HMRC is claiming, and why.

 

However, it seems possible he has been asked for SA returns, given your previous post mentioning "penalties", and his "burying of head":

 

How long is the time scale?

I will do what i can as i really want this sorted as his answer to it was just burry his head in the sand .

. I dont want the stress of DCA's or anything after this as 14 weeks pregnant and life is stressful enough.

If you can suggest what to put in a letter i would be beyond gratefull to you.

 

Thanks again

 

Again the first thing to do is to find out how the liability has arisen.

 

If it is income tax, then HMRC has 2 main "arms" you could be dealing with : "assessment" and "collections".

 

The aim is to stop "collections" progressing things while getting things agreed with "assessment".

 

Phone the number listed on the most recent letter.

Explain as best you can the situation, and if both arms are involved, ask for a number to speak to the other, too.

 

Find out what the main issue is and let them know you want to get it sorted out. Keep each 'arm' aware of where you are with the other. Keep notes of who you speak to, when, and aim to agree with them a realistic time-scale for each step on the way to getting any overdue returns back.

 

If collections know you are disputing the sum and it will be recalculated as much less by assessment ; they may put a hold on their processes. Their key will be knowing that you don't owe what is currently showing AND seeing that confirmed as assessment process returns and adjust down their 'determinations'

 

In the end (hopefully!) all they will want isto have HMRC paid what is due by law.

 

My experience helping someone through similar was of collections being amenable to reason : they just wanted it resolved.

Many people in assessment seemed similarly reasonable : a few we're very helpful : 1 (in particular) was obstructive / unhelpful and in effect was "I don't care that you've kept to the timescale previously agreed and have got all but one return back. The member of HMRC staff who helped you get the previous returns back exceeded their remit : sort it yourself or else"

My friend was surprised by their response : and just went round them : but most HMRC staff were helpful when they saw my friend was getting it resolved.

 

Your partner may still be liable for penalties for failing to supply a return even if no tax was due for a particular year. The penalties have increased recently, so it may be worth getting the 2011/12 return done first,then the 2010/11, then the earliest outstanding return, then work forward from the earliest years to 2009/10 last.

Edited July 1, 2013 by BazzaS

[BazzaS]

Any update??

 

Is the issue "determinations" / failure to provide SA returns?

If not : what is the reason HMRC believe tax is owed?

[BazzaS]

Thanks for the merge, dx.

 

I'd posted on 6th July:

"Is the issue "determinations" / failure to provide SA returns?

If not : what is the reason HMRC believe tax is owed?"

 

I'd previously posted about contacting both "collections" and "assessment".

 

If "collections" are undertaking "distraint" proceedings, then no, they don't need a court order nor judgement. They can't force entry into your property without a warrant, though.

 

Did you contact both 'assesment' and 'collections' as I'd previously advised?. Is the issue tax 'determinations' on the basis of SA non-returns.?

 

I am aware my answers / advice may be of limited validity, as without the information as to if you've followed my previous advice and why HMRC believe he owes them those sums : I may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

I'd be concerned that any advice you receive may be limited without those details, and/or people may be put off replying if they can see no reply to those previous questions and the lack of response to where I'd asked for an update : these are questions to which the answers will help CAG'ers to help you.

Edited July 15, 2013 by BazzaS

[BazzaS]

Hello

 

So sorry i hadnt replied iv been in and out of hospital and just been very stressed in general.

 

He contacted them again just now and explained it all over again,

 

I told my partner what you had said and he said to the guy on the phone about collections and assesment and he advised the following

 

He said that the letter was automated and to ignore it, that he (my partner)was in consultation with hmrc and all the relevent forma he needs to fill out and send back are on there way to him, these being self assesment forms for the years needed, and they may take up to 14 days.

 

He further apploigised for the streas caused and the lack of communication that had been left on the system as their was limted info on the previous attempts to sort this.

 

He needs to fill out the SA's and return them to proove that he is on benefit and the issue should sort itself out.

 

Im sorry if thats very brief and i get myself into a tizzy as i get stressed very easily.

 

Yes the derterminations were on the non return of SA basis, amongst interest etc

 

Good that my previous advice is relevant (it is for failure to complete SA returns and resultant 'determinations')

 

There is communication between "assessment" and "collections", but mostly it is that collections can see assesment's notes.

If the person your husband spoke to was concentrating on getting the SA returns back, it is likely he was on the "compliance" / "assesment" side : "collections" don't send those out. However, the phone number listed on a letter discussing 'distraint' is likely from "collections" or one if the 'field' teams.

 

If he spoke with 'assesment' you'd be wise to also contact collections and get them to agree a "hold" on collection activity. If you can agree a "hold" and a review date with them you'll have peace of mind.

 

If you then start to get the returns back to them, collections will be able to see this if you call up on any review dates agreed. See my previous advice for which returns to concentrate on regarding timescales. Once the ones with greatest accruing penalties are dealt with, followed by any which are likely to be beyond amendment (due to a six-year cut off) are dealt with go with the earliest first, unless there is one that has the largest 'determination'.

 

This will then keep "collections" content as they see any figure "owed" decreasing : you can then agree continued "hold"s as you get more returns back.

 

Expect to still have to pay penalties for late filing even if no tax is owed.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/sa/deadlines-penalties.htm#3

 

Length of delay Penalty you will have to pay

1 day late A penalty of £100. This applies even if you have no tax to pay

or have paid the tax you owe.

3 months late £10 for each following day - up to a 90 day maximum of £900.

This is as well as the fixed penalty above.

6 months late £300 or 5% of the tax due, whichever is the higher. This is as

well as the penalties above.

12 months late £300 or 5% of the tax due, whichever is the higher.

 

In serious cases you may be asked to pay up to 100% of the tax due instead.

These are as well as the penalties above.

[End QUOTE]

 

These are penalties for late filing, and independant of tax owed : so (even) with no tax owed the sums are:

1 day late, £100

90 days late, £1000

6 months late, £1300.

 

With tax owed, the late filing penalty sums remain the same, unless the tax owed is more than £6000, (where 5% will be greater than £300), while there is a distinct interest charge on late tax of 3% per annum, as well as penalty charges on the late tax, as well as the late filing penalties

 

These increased penalties started in the 2011/12 tax year.