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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed


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Thanks bhall,

 

I know Apple didn't like any reference to the subrogated cases, but they all have one thing in common. A bank wins regardless of registration or deeds. That's stating the obvious when it's subrogated, but the judges agree with common law and that is the right to security when a mortgage is given regardless of how complicated the case is.

 

Certainly more appropriate legislation is needed for a borrower to defend a case and for the protection of any equity they have in a property.

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Morning all

 

Yes the Sahib case was regarding an equitable mortgage, title deed documents are deposited with he lender along with a memorandum stating that he has done so of his own volition in respect of security on loan, a mortgage in equity is created, but there is no transfer in law.

 

In the 1989 regulations the requirement for agreements to be made in writing superseded the memorandum and thus were a requirement in this kind of arrangement.

 

This is not applicable in charge via way of a legal mortgage where the deed transfers title by the operation of law.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

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Do you think we can get the results before Wednesday lunchtime as I go away for a few days and you need to remember it is all about me!

 

Hello

 

Given Apple's previous post

 

Oh, is that what Crapstone is implying??

 

She is misguided if she thinks I have a crystal ball.... lol

 

You'd think if she had the decision and it was in the lenders favor - it would make sense to post it up - I know I wouldn't hesitate at all.

 

 

Apple

 

You might find out before you go away- where ever you are going, I hope you have a great time

 

Yes Mark, I am Bones

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Equitable mortgages are still possible BTW.

 

Yes I believe so, I knew that there was a change in the way they were made, must have half read something somewhere and presumed that it was the 2002 LRA.

It wasn't it was the 1989 LPMP, which introduced the requirement of the signed agreement.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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On looking at this after you mentioned it before. I think that a charge or disposition which for any reason was not registered would still be enforceable in the same way as an equitable mortgage.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Yes I believe so, I knew that there was a change in the way they were made, must have half read something somewhere and presumed that it was the 2002 regulations.

It wasn't it was the 1989 LPMP, which introduced the requirement of the signed agreement.

 

Indeed. But remember that an equitable mortgage doesn't have to have a signed deed.

 

Edit: Just seen your second post.

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Thanks . I eagerly await the decision and to be honest I just want to know whatever it is.

 

Yes, there definitely needs to be a conclusion, one way or the other.

 

Do you think we can get the results before Wednesday lunchtime as I go away for a few days and you need to remember it is all about me!

 

 

Email me your mobile phone number, I will text you !!

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I am not sure what decision we are waiting for to be honest.

 

The argument presented, in case anyone has forgotten is not based on the incorrect actions of the lender,nor is is it based on the problems of the debtor(although both or either may be present) the argument is based soley on the presumption that the architects of the legislation, both housed of parliament and the lending industry have all "got it wrong" for the last 12 years and misinterpreted legislation.

 

Well I for one am on the edge of my seat, can't wait to see how it all turns out.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

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Thank you Citizen B I will. Going to be in Krakow for a few nights

 

Have a nice time :)

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Any one else? bhall?

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2001/1389.html

 

17.In my judgment the case in United Bank of Kuwait v Sahib does not help Mr Green, because that was a case where there was no deed, unlike this case. There was in that case a purely informal equitable mortgage by deposit of title deeds. That had no effect because, as a contract, it was required to comply with section 2 and it did not comply. In my judgment His Honour Judge Jones was right to reject the submission that Mr Green made on the effect of section 2. Having referred to the point that it was unarguable, he said:

 

"Section two applies to a contract for the sale of an interest in land or a contract for some other disposition in relation to land. A contract to create a mortgage would obviously have to comply with section two and if it did not then it would not be a valid contract.

 

However, in this case there was no contract for the mortgage, there was simply the execution of the mortgage deed. That mortgage deed is a mortgage deed. It is not a contract to create a mortgage. I need really say no more than that about it."

 

Yes Mark, I am Bones

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Then don't bother. You are not the only person on CAG or this thread. Fyi this is a discussion thread. Discuss. Expand. No one's forcing you to take part in it so climb off your high horse. 'Worth the effort of responding to'?? Or shall I read that as, doesn't have an explanation logical or lawful? I think I can safely say that your brain has been picked on this one, so don't waste any more precious brain cells.

 

Someone needs a chill pill

 

Yes Mark, I am Bones

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http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2001/1389.html

 

17.In my judgment the case in United Bank of Kuwait v Sahib does not help Mr Green, because that was a case where there was no deed, unlike this case. There was in that case a purely informal equitable mortgage by deposit of title deeds. That had no effect because, as a contract, it was required to comply with section 2 and it did not comply. In my judgment His Honour Judge Jones was right to reject the submission that Mr Green made on the effect of section 2. Having referred to the point that it was unarguable, he said:

 

"Section two applies to a contract for the sale of an interest in land or a contract for some other disposition in relation to land. A contract to create a mortgage would obviously have to comply with section two and if it did not then it would not be a valid contract.

 

However, in this case there was no contract for the mortgage, there was simply the execution of the mortgage deed. That mortgage deed is a mortgage deed. It is not a contract to create a mortgage. I need really say no more than that about it."

 

Wasting your time Ben, this chap doesn't even understand about the formation of an agreement, may as well give a chicken the times crossword :)

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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both Is It Me? and Apple are at the present time a.w.o.l and not posting anything about the decision issued by the chamber, so we will have to wait and see, won't we

 

 

Yes why is that I wonder :)

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BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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I don't think anyone has a hidden agenda. What is clear that it appears easy for a few to become so engrossed in a tiny issue that they fail to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. It doesn't take being a solicitor or a barrister to have a hunch that borrowing doesn't disappear on a daft technicality.

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Well for what it's worth I do not think there are any HIDDEN agendas at all but there have been some rather open ones.

 

I would also say that some people may have been discouraged from asking questions when those questions are totally ignored . WP and MP you have both made comments and been answered, just because you do not like the answer doesn't mean that answer was wrong.

 

From what I can see this is a very confused situation and it has not been made clear exactly what result is hoped for. Obviously IIM and Apple have been hoping for one result but I am still not sure what they expect that result to achieve.

 

Now if I were a cynic and god forbid anyone would think that I would question why people with several years membership but very few posts are suddenly joining in this thread to attack certainly two of the people I most respect on this forum ( Sorry Ben we haven't had many dealings lol)

 

lets hope we get to hear the result very soon, I certainly have my suspicions as to which way it has gone owing to the absence of certain posters , but if I am wrong I will admit I am wrong

Any opinion I give is from personal experience .

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few posts have been unapproved as they contribute nothing to the discussion. Sorry to those who then responded by quoting those posts, because they have been unapproved as well.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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few posts have been unapproved as they contribute nothing to the discussion. Sorry to those who then responded by quoting those posts, because they have been unapproved as well.

 

My apologies to WP, my response was a little juvenile

 

Yes Mark, I am Bones

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I actually thought by now that there would be some answers. Seems not.

 

It appears I have missed something but it probably wasn't relevant if it was removed.

 

Have a nice time in Krakow Fletch. I've never been but my cousin assures me that his travels around there were well worth it.

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Well for what it's worth I do not think there are any HIDDEN agendas at all but there have been some rather open ones.

 

I would also say that some people may have been discouraged from asking questions when those questions are totally ignored . WP and MP you have both made comments and been answered, just because you do not like the answer doesn't mean that answer was wrong.

 

From what I can see this is a very confused situation and it has not been made clear exactly what result is hoped for. Obviously IIM and Apple have been hoping for one result but I am still not sure what they expect that result to achieve.

 

Now if I were a cynic and god forbid anyone would think that I would question why people with several years membership but very few posts are suddenly joining in this thread to attack certainly two of the people I most respect on this forum ( Sorry Ben we haven't had many dealings lol)

 

lets hope we get to hear the result very soon, I certainly have my suspicions as to which way it has gone owing to the absence of certain posters , but if I am wrong I will admit I am wrong

 

Firstly, I've been on here for a while if you scroll back long before you mate and directed one of the people to this thread who has now taken their case to the PC. Secondly no-one has been attacked.

 

My post which (Citizen B can you please put back my orirignal post as I have not broken any forum rules at all) was simply to enquire how an equitable mortgage may be enforced if there is no underlying loan agreement signed. This was in response to the previous posts and is clearly relevant. Holidays to Krakov I fail to see the relevance yet these posts remain. You now have a thread which does not make sense to anyone else now reading.

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I actually thought by now that there would be some answers. Seems not..

 

I am still DUMBSTRUCK that nothing has been posted by either Apple or Is It Me? about the decision issued by the property chamber - not even so much, if the application was successful or not.

 

I guess we are left to wonder if the continued period of silence on both of their parts is an indication of the decision of the property chamber.

 

Since you revealed that a decision had been issued, we have not heard anything. Is It Me? did log in but it appears that he did not post anything in this thread. Disappointing given how actively people have been encouraged to make applications, to now just go silent on the matter.

 

I am still waiting on a several responses to come back, including a couple from the Property Chamber and the Ministry of Justice. Hopefully one of them might shed some light on the outcome.

 

 

It appears I have missed something but it probably wasn't relevant if it was removed.

 

 

You didn't miss anything important

 

 

Have a nice time in Krakow Fletch. I've never been but my cousin assures me that his travels around there were well worth it.

 

I have a relative that goes to Poland 3/4 times a year, I have never been but I heard it is really nice - I am sure Fletch will enjoy himself, even if I am not one of the two people he respects :-x

 

Yes Mark, I am Bones

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