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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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What is a realistic charge for a bailiff attendance?


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Are we not forgetting that a bailiff visit is a last resort because people haven't paid something that is owed. They have always been chased by post but still ignore it.

 

Almost all of brassnecked's comments refer to the vulnerable again. NOT EVERYBODY is vulnerable. There are many debtor's out there who just refuse to pay what's owed.

 

Remember, in the HCEO business the debts have made judgment. The creditors are often small businesses struggling themselves yet this always seems to be missed in this forum.

 

Not all debt is Council Tax!

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Are we not forgetting that a bailiff visit is a last resort because people haven't paid something that is owed. They have always been chased by post but still ignore it.

 

Almost all of brassnecked's comments refer to the vulnerable again. NOT EVERYBODY is vulnerable. No not everybody is, but it is mainly the vulnerable and low income families who have fallen into hard times and arrears or gained a CCJ from a water company, that gets sent up to High Court that suffer disproportionately from the charging regime There are many debtor's out there who just refuse to pay what's owed. Yes there are many companies do a phoenix to avoid paying, some of the worst payers are councils

 

Remember, in the HCEO business the debts have made judgment. The creditors are often small businesses struggling themselves yet this always seems to be missed in this forum.

 

Not all debt is Council Tax! No it isn't but it forms a large proportion of the debt that advice is sought for on here

 

Now on a lighter note if I got a High Court Writ on Comet, what would be your chances of getting any money by enforcing against them?

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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You make some fair points brassnecked. I'm not saying that enforcement doesn't affect people in financial difficulty. It's just that I see a very different side to enforcement, which doesn't include CT/Parking by the way.

 

With regard to Comet, there are two hopes....

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You make some fair points brassnecked. I'm not saying that enforcement doesn't affect people in financial difficulty. It's just that I see a very different side to enforcement, which doesn't include CT/Parking by the way.

 

With regard to Comet, there are two hopes....

 

The majority on here is CTax and parking with the odd Sherforce. The majority who come on CAG have every intention of paying debts, just that the enforcement backs them into a corner, as it compounds an already unmanageable debt. And yes threre are professional avoiders, but they will use bankruptcy, and where are you then with a writ, when the OR tells you nothing for you?

We could do with some help from you.

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What you have to remember HCEO, is people come in here for help or advice because the bailiff that has been assigned to them has not played by the rules so to speak.

 

If the bailiff is sticking to the rules then there are no reasons why a debtor has to make it known in here. Saying that it has been heard that a bailiff has done the right thing in here, its a rarity but it has been known.

 

I cannot see your point in posting in here unless it is to wind a few people up.

 

If you want to do something good, then find your fellow rogue bailiffs and show them what they should be charging and just let them know that some of them are making your job a lot harder because of their actions.

 

Regardless what sort of bailiff you are, you are all being tarred with the same brush, the same as bailiff tar the same brush for debtors.

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What you have to remember HCEO, is people come in here for help or advice because the bailiff that has been assigned to them has not played by the rules so to speak.

 

If the bailiff is sticking to the rules then there are no reasons why a debtor has to make it known in here. Saying that it has been heard that a bailiff has done the right thing in here, its a rarity but it has been known.

 

I cannot see your point in posting in here unless it is to wind a few people up.

 

If you want to do something good, then find your fellow rogue bailiffs and show them what they should be charging and just let them know that some of them are making your job a lot harder because of their actions.

 

Regardless what sort of bailiff you are, you are all being tarred with the same brush, the same as bailiff tar the same brush for debtors.

 

:first::first::amen:

If i have helped in any way hit my star.

any advice given is based on experience and learnt from this site :-)

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Have to agree with seanamarts, in any case distress is medieval and has no place in a modern society, Lord Denning said as much 30 odd years ago in the last century.

We could do with some help from you.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Are we not forgetting that a bailiff visit is a last resort because people haven't paid something that is owed. They have always been chased by post but still ignore it.

 

Almost all of brassnecked's comments refer to the vulnerable again. NOT EVERYBODY is vulnerable. There are many debtor's out there who just refuse to pay what's owed.

 

Remember, in the HCEO business the debts have made judgment. The creditors are often small businesses struggling themselves yet this always seems to be missed in this forum.

 

Not all debt is Council Tax!

 

Well how about the Bailliffs start by doing something really sensible and finding out WHY people haven't paid and rather than treating everyone like a criminal ( which they are not ) working out the best way to proceed rather than just using the "you are paying now whether you can afford it or not, and by the way I've added 25% onto your bill because I am a thieving thug".

 

You say SOME refuse to pay it, that is a very very small minority. The majority cannot afford it and in most cases I think that pride means they refuse to face up to it and admit there is a problem. That pride takes a further knock when some thug is stood in front of you telling you that you should ring friends or family and admit to them they are in trouble. That is the most disgraceful thing a bailliff can do. Not only do they make the matter worse by adding on huge charges, they then force them to go to other people and tell them that they are being blackmailed into borrowing money which they cannot afford to repay.

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Well how about the Bailliffs start by doing something really sensible and finding out WHY people haven't paid and rather than treating everyone like a criminal ( which they are not ) working out the best way to proceed rather than just using the "you are paying now whether you can afford it or not, and by the way I've added 25% onto your bill because I am a thieving thug".

 

You say SOME refuse to pay it, that is a very very small minority. The majority cannot afford it and in most cases I think that pride means they refuse to face up to it and admit there is a problem. That pride takes a further knock when some thug is stood in front of you telling you that you should ring friends or family and admit to them they are in trouble. That is the most disgraceful thing a bailliff can do. Not only do they make the matter worse by adding on huge charges, they then force them to go to other people and tell them that they are being blackmailed into borrowing money which they cannot afford to repay.

 

Exactly, where are they going to get the money, wonder if some bailiffs have told them to go to Wonga to get money to pay their fees legit and dodgy?:evil:

We could do with some help from you.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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brassnecked, my experiences from the other side of the fence in HCEO says that only 50% of the debtors we deal with had an intention of paying what they owe. The other's do not use bankruptcy to avoid debt. We see a lot of rogue companies set up to avoid it however, transferring assets of the debtor business into a new one. Other's just think they can get away with it. Of the debtor's that do want to clear what they owe most go into payment arrangements. Yes,there are fees added to the debt but that is the price of avoiding it. It is usually only our intervention that prompts the dialogue and the payment that follows.

 

seanamarts, I didn't come here to wind anybody up. I agree that there is abuse of the 'bailiff' system and that abuse will clearly be seen greater in the enforcement of Council Tax. Whether you agree with the TCEA 2007 fee proposals or not much of the fee abuse will be wiped out straight away. I would argue that the abuse is due to the initial fees being far too low at present. Clearly Caggers will disagree but as I said before there is a cost to running an enforcement company. You may also argue it is an outdated method but it's here today so this is what we have to deal with. I also agree that the vulnerable need more protecting and enforcement against people on benefits could, and should, be handled via an attachment of those benefits. There are rarely assets to seize so the 'bailiff' approach is understandably the wrong one.

 

At the end of the day creditors, whether they be a Council, a small struggling business or an elderly woman ripped of by rogue builders need to recover what is owed. Sometimes enforcement is the only logical answer.

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At the end of the day creditors, whether they be a Council, a small struggling business or an elderly woman ripped of by rogue builders need to recover what is owed. Sometimes enforcement is the only logical answer.

 

 

What about all those ripped off by a rouge bailiff

If i have helped in any way hit my star.

any advice given is based on experience and learnt from this site :-)

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There are remedies for this and they should be followed through. This website has the expertise to guide those that feel they have been 'ripped off'. The sooner 'rogue' bailiffs are out of my industry the better. However, there will always be those that cry 'rogue' when they are merely upset at getting caught.

 

We had a case recently where a woman claimed an enforcement officer kicked her door open, pinned her to the wall and assaulted her. The police were called and it was only when she realised the whole thing had been filmed that she withdrew her complaint. She was charged with wasting Police time. This wasn't a vulnerable single mother either. Huge house, nice cars (albeit on finance) and the ability to pay.

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Personally I have very little experience in this kind of work.

 

However, I know the case because I was asked about it. It turned out that the letters had been received and ignored. The debtor had lied to his wife about them. £542 was not a first visit charge.

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42man, if you're Site Team would rather I not comment on any post, even if it does help a Cagger then let me know. You're own ims21 has already shown the sometimes unprofessional nature of CAG by removing a post in this thread already.

 

I have already said that surely dialogue with at least somebody in the industry must surely benefit.

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"Of the debtor's that do want to clear what they owe most go into payment arrangements. Yes,there are fees added to the debt but that is the price of avoiding it." What on earth kind of thinking or logic is that. Agreeing a payment arrangement is not "avoiding it" at all. the entire context of your post was about payment not about the levy. it is clear that by "it" you refer to payment. I am sorry to say that your comment clearly indicates your blinkers. Please be accurate and factual. Then again being accurate (with charges) and sticking to facts (wrong address, wrong person, wrong car) does not seem common in your line of work. Such a gross misstatement from a HCEO is troubling. In any business there will those that won't or can't pay. Times are hard but it seems that bailiffs want to be lifted from that and have the public carry the consequence. the general public are fed up with that now, they have had enough of it.

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"Of the debtor's that do want to clear what they owe most go into payment arrangements. Yes,there are fees added to the debt but that is the price of avoiding it." What on earth kind of thinking or logic is that. Agreeing a payment arrangement is not "avoiding it" at all. the entire context of your post was about payment not about the levy. it is clear that by "it" you refer to payment. I am sorry to say that your comment clearly indicates your blinkers. Please be accurate and factual. Then again being accurate (with charges) and sticking to facts (wrong address, wrong person, wrong car) does not seem common in your line of work. Such a gross misstatement from a HCEO is troubling. In any business there will those that won't or can't pay. Times are hard but it seems that bailiffs want to be lifted from that and have the public carry the consequence. the general public are fed up with that now, they have had enough of it.

 

Agreeing to a payment arrangement with an HCEO would usually imply that they have avoided paying the original debt, then the judgment that was issued. Therefore this agreement has been forced by the attendance of an enforcement officer (usually the last resort) and is not therefore a willfulness to settle what was owed.

 

If you believe I'm blinkered I'm happy to listen as to why....

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Oh and the general public form a fair portion of the £65M that HCEOs recover each year. I'm not sure that they're fed up with it.

There we will have to politely beg to differ, as the rogues seem to outnumber the good in the enforcement "industry?" is it an industry, or a service? well it does when you trawl the debt forums. I would say a service, where you are paid for extracting money that is due when all else fails, what you have to accept is that there is a growing number of cases where the cost of the enforcement will be too great for the debtor to bear, due to reducing income from low pay or benefits, that conundrum will remain whatever we say.

We could do with some help from you.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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brassnecked, I fully understand your stance and one that is based upon your own experiences and what is published here. Clearly the most complained about enforcement is that by Certificated Bailiffs under the Distress for Rent Rules - CT, Parking, Mag Fines etc. I'm not for one minute suggesting that there aren't people that abuse the system and regulations laid out before them but I would have to disagree that the rogues outnumber the 'good apples', as it were. In any event, the fact that they are out there is the reason forums like this exist so it's clearly going on.

 

Yes the industry needs tighter regulation and yes many of the 'bailiffs' on the road need more formal and justifiable training. A Judge granting a certificate on something he know little about is clearly wrong. I would welcome these reforms with open arms.

 

As I said previously, there also needs to be a clearer definition of vulnerable and a complete rethink on enforcement against those on benefits. Even I know that sending a bailiff to recover assets that probably don't exist or have any value but charging fees for it is completely pointless and if I'm honest. wrong.

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42man, if you're Site Team would rather I not comment on any post, even if it does help a Cagger then let me know. You're own ims21 has already shown the sometimes unprofessional nature of CAG by removing a post in this thread already.

 

I have already said that surely dialogue with at least somebody in the industry must surely benefit.

 

What 'dialogue' is it you suggest is available to the debtor? 'no affordable payment plan', 'seven days to pay in full or we will break in and take your goods'' borrow what you owe to pay me and don't worry about paying the lender back' 'we need to double the debt to cover our fees'....

 

Am I really missing the point here? who other than the industry will benefit from the one sided dialogue you suggest?

 

WD

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seanamarts, I didn't come here to wind anybody up. I agree that there is abuse of the 'bailiff' system and that abuse will clearly be seen greater in the enforcement of Council Tax.

 

Not just council tax, but pcn's as well.

 

Whether you agree with the TCEA 2007 fee proposals or not much of the fee abuse will be wiped out straight away. No it wont because the bailiff will rely on the debtor not knowing what the fee's are, unless the bailiff/council are kind enough to send a fee scale with notice letters first. which I doubt very much.

 

I would argue that the abuse is due to the initial fees being far too low at present. Poppycock!! bailiffs went into the 'industry' knowing full well what the fee's were They get told how to milk the system and how and what to charge

Clearly Caggers will disagree but as I said before there is a cost to running an enforcement company. There is cost in running every company, but you do not see other companies sending out people to bully, threaten and abuse people to get what they need to run a business. That is basically an admittance why rogues are being bought in to work for the bailiff industry.

 

I can only imagine what enforcement companies felt like when the internet took off as it has and sites like this were born, because if they hadnt your work wouldnt of changed. no one would be the wiser.

You may also argue it is an outdated method but it's here today so this is what we have to deal with. I also agree that the vulnerable need more protecting and enforcement against people on benefits could, and should, be handled via an attachment of those benefits. Vulnerability dosnt just stop at benefit, there are other vulnerabilities out there.

 

There are rarely assets to seize so the 'bailiff' approach is understandably the wrong one. No no no, 'understandably'!!! Bailiff's are meant to be 'professionals' they have a certificate to prove that they know what is right from wrong, that certificate is not a right to go ahead and abuse innocent people. which most seem to think that it is. Its about time 'empathy' was added to the bailiff vocabulary.

At the end of the day creditors, whether they be a Council, a small struggling business or an elderly woman ripped of by rogue builders need to recover what is owed. Sometimes enforcement is the only logical answer

.

 

Nobody denies that. There wouldnt be a forum like this if they did what they did in the correct manner.

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