Penalty Fare Advice Please - ** RESOLVED **

[Stanage]

Hi.

 

Really appreciate the advice given to others here and hoping for the same please

 

My journey was from Doncaster to the Peak District. I purchased a ticket from Doncaster to Sheffield, with the intention of deciding my onward journey (train, bus or possible lift from friend) on arrival at Sheffield.

 

On arrival in Sheffield and checking departure boards, the best option was to Chesterfield, where I would get a lift from a friend. I therefore crossed from one side of the platform to the other, to board the train to Chesterfield, with the assumption that I could buy a ticket on the train. Once the train departed I was approached by an official and I asked to buy a ticket to Chesterfield. He issued a Penalty Fare of £20. At the time I felt that there should have been some sort of warning notice that this would happen, so did not pay at the time.

 

On further research, I found that SRA Penalty Fare Rules state that an authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare if warning notices are not displayed (Rule 7.3), and that these warning notices must be displayed so that they can be seen by passengers changing onto a penalty fares train from another train (Rule 4.1).

 

There were no warning notices on the platform at Sheffield (I have been back to double-check), so my understanding is that the Authorised Collector should not have charged the penalty fare, as they were not visible to a passenger (me) changing onto the penalty fares train.

 

I appealed to IRCAS on this basis, but received a rejection letter stating that the appeal was not upheld as purchase of a valid ticket had not been made before travelling. The letter appears to use standard paragraphs to state that ‘train companies operating a penalty fare scheme display statutory warning notices…’.

 

I still do not think that the train company has provided the statutory warning notices, so they should not have issued the Penalty Fare. I have written again to IRCAS with the facts above (with the addition of photographs to show that there are no notices on the station platform) asking them to reconsider the appeal and, in the event that they still feel that I should pay the Penalty Fare, provide a clear explanation as to why the Authorised Collector charged a penalty fare when it appears that he should not have done so. I am awaiting a response.

 

 

The purpose of this post is to get realistic feedback from those that have seen a lot of these on:

• Whether I do actually have valid grounds for appeal, or whether I have misunderstood something
  
• What’s likely to happen next if IRCAS still reject the appeal
  
• If I don’t hear from them by the payment date, whether just to pay the £20, take the hit and move on, even if I am in the right
  

Your advice would be much appreciated – many thanks in advance.

[Grotesque]

Was that NR DON-SHF and EMT SHF-CHD?

[Grotesque]

PS the Penalty Fares Regulations are here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?309653-Penalty-Fares-Regulations-May-2002

[Stanage]

Cross Country Doncaster to Sheffield, East Mids Trains Sheffield to Chesterfield.

 

Thanks for the link - I've already read the SRA Penalty Fare policy and rules documents. I really need to understand whether I've interpreted the rule correctly or missed something.

 

Many thanks

[Grotesque]

Yes I know you said that. Wht quote 4.1 then? It's the Introduction....

[Stanage]

I've quoted 4.1 of the SRA Penalty Fare Rules document, as opposed to the SRA Penalty Fares Policy document. My understanding is that the 2 work alongside each other and in fact refer to each other.

 

Hope I've got that right

[Grotesque]

What about 6.1 & 2?

 

Ahhh-!

 

But what about 7.3b?

Edited July 4, 2012 by Grotesque

[Stanage]

My understanding is that (paraphrasing):

 

6.1 says that I have to produce a ticket

6.2 says that, if I don't produce a ticket, I may get a penalty fare

 

but that this is over-ridden by:

 

7.3 which says that a penalty fare must not be charged under rule 6.2 if warning notices are not displayed in line with Rule 4.

 

That's the basis of my argument. Hope that makes sense.

[Grotesque]

PS- Appendix A, 6.2b....

[Stanage]

I'm a bit confused now - i suspect that my post and your edit crossed.

 

I think that Rule 7.3 is simply a plain english version of Appendix A, 6.2. In either case it's the 'B' para of this clause which says that a penalty fare must not be charged if warning notices are not displayed in line with Rule 4 - that's the basis of my argument and I'm trying to understand whether it's a valid argument.

[Grotesque]

Theoretically I think yes; at least, it's available to use. I don't know the station so will (no offence!!!) have to take your word as to the layout of the PF signage. But I assume IRCAS stated that it's your responsibilty (almost everything on the railwai IS your responsibility I'm afraid) to purchase a ticket prior to boarding, or to attempt to do so? Likewise the responsibility is yours to ascertain the conditions of carriage and local ticket procedures etc. Which, IRCAS probably think you did not; they probably assume you went blithely from one platform to another with yer ear plugs in and sunglassese on which of course you might've...

 

They give you seven minutes to connect; you may wish to argue that that is not long enough in which to connect and seek out a member of staff for advice; or to find a PF sign. If all their PF signs are outside on the two entrances, you might be able to claim that. If however there are one or two inside the station, they will likely suggest you could've seen them, even if it meant going slightly out of your way.

 

At the end of the day, there's no harming in appealing on those grounds; it must ocassionally work otherwise the now-obsolete SRA would not have felt the need to regulate on the posibility. HOWEVER bearing in mind that EMT have had a PF sceme in place since (I think, not absolutely sure) Jan 2009, and being the only PF operator in a station of pay-train TOC's, this must've happened before and mmaybe they feel on solid ground.

 

As to what to do, that's up to you, but at the moment you owe 'em twenty sheets; that figure cannot go up until you have exhausted the appeals procedure (IPFAS), so if you feel so inclined, barrage them with photos, time and motion studies- it might work... if it don't though, pay the score, 'cos up to that point you still won't have paid the fare required for that journey, and they can forward it for non-payment prosecution.

 

Hope this helps. Sorry slightly wind-bag...

[Stanage]

I don't know the station so will (no offence!!!) have to take your word as to the layout of the PF signage.

 

None taken. Wasn't sure if I missed PF signs myself so went back to check. Would post image here but can't as I'm a newbie

 

But I assume IRCAS stated that it's your responsibilty (almost everything on the railwai IS your responsibility I'm afraid) to purchase a ticket prior to boarding, or to attempt to do so? Likewise the responsibility is yours to ascertain the conditions of carriage and local ticket procedures etc. Which, IRCAS probably think you did not; they probably assume you went blithely from one platform to another with yer ear plugs in and sunglassese on which of course you might've...

 

If I'm honest there was an element of that. I'm not a frequent train user so hadn't understood the implications of boarding without a ticket. But then I think that's what the PF signs are for - to remind people like me of those implications, and hence the reason that the need for signs is embedded in the rules.

 

At the end of the day, there's no harming in appealing on those grounds; it must ocassionally work otherwise the now-obsolete SRA would not have felt the need to regulate on the posibility. HOWEVER bearing in mind that EMT have had a PF sceme in place since (I think, not absolutely sure) Jan 2009, and being the only PF operator in a station of pay-train TOC's, this must've happened before and mmaybe they feel on solid ground.

 

Understood

 

As to what to do, that's up to you, but at the moment you owe 'em twenty sheets; that figure cannot go up until you have exhausted the appeals procedure (IPFAS).

 

Do I need to keep dealing with IRCAS, or is IFPAS a different procedure? I didn't think IFPAS dealt with East Mids Trains. Also, I'm assuming that I still only have 14 days from their original appeal rejection, and that my letter to them does not reset that clock.

 

Hope this helps. Sorry slightly wind-bag...

 

No probs - thanks for the input.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Stanage

[RPI]

Having been to Sheffield recently, I did notice quite a few PF posters all around the station.

[Old-CodJA]

There is an ongoing argument regarding access at Sheffield Midland Station with EMT wanting to put in barriers because of the 'high fare evasion risk' posed by the current open access to platforms from the footbridge, which includes a public walkway to the tram stop and other parts of the city.

 

Putting barriers in would control the issue of free access, effectively creating a CTA in all but name and Sheffield Council and the Civic Trust amongst other bodies have successfully opposed this so far.

 

DfT have offered £3m toward construction of a new footbridge.

 

The result of the continuing dispute is that there has been a proliferation of signs and posters reminding travellers to purchase tickets and that Penalty Fares do apply on services from Sheffield

[Grotesque]

Ah-ha! Well that sort of local knowlededge is what makes the difference, Mr. Sheffield-ite OC lol

 

Actually it does. This could be the sort of case where the court pile into taxis and actually go and see for themselves!

[Old-CodJA]

Ah-ha! Well that sort of local knowlededge is what makes the difference, Mr. Sheffield-ite OC lol

 

Definitely not a Sheffield-ite, far from it, but I know what you mean.

 

Just keeping a weather eye on what's happening around the network helps a bit.

[Grotesque]

Last time I was in Sheffield I got beat up!!!! So I hope they get their new footbridge... to jump off!!!! lol

 

Is this the one mate:

 

http://manorcastlegreens.sheffieldgreenparty.org.uk/2009/12/04/does-the-penalty-fares-scheme-mean-we-cant-use-the-footbridge-no/

[Old-CodJA]

Is this the one mate:

 

http://manorcastlegreens.sheffieldgreenparty.org.uk/2009/12/04/does-the-penalty-fares-scheme-mean-we-cant-use-the-footbridge-no/

 

Yes, that's the one. It's a big local news issue around there and has been for quite some time.

 

Tim Shoveller, the former MD of EMT was very much in favour and it appears his successor David Home is just as keen, but there are a great many difficulties to overcome on both sides

[Grotesque]

Mmmm. Shoveller... what was he over here... Anglia? GE? NXEA? Can't remember but the name rings a bell

[Old-CodJA]

Mmmm. Shoveller... what was he over here... Anglia? GE? NXEA? Can't remember but the name rings a bell

 

Formerly with BR, Eurostar, Virgin and EMT, is now MD at SWT.

[Grotesque]

Ah! -Eurostar. That's where i know him from. Seem to remember he had (has?) a rather small head.

[Stanage]

Having been to Sheffield recently, I did notice quite a few PF posters all around the station.

 

The result of the continuing dispute is that there has been a proliferation of signs and posters reminding travellers to purchase tickets and that Penalty Fares do apply on services from Sheffield

 

I went back to Sheffield on Tues to check that I hadn't just walked around with my eyes shut.

 

There were no posters at all on Platform 6/7/8, which was where I transferred.

 

I saw 2 on the route from the entrance to the trains, where I was looking for them.

 

I didn't notice any anywhere else, although I was not actively looking for them then.

[Old-CodJA]

A local need it seems,

but I think it is not one that would prevent EMT from saying that the requirement to display the signs has been complied with because they are also displayed on trains of course.

[Stanage]

None displayed on the train either unfortunately.

 

 

I double-checked that at the time.

 

 

My understanding is that TOCs don't often display PF notices on trains as the rolling stock may be used on non-PF routes.

[Grotesque]

What stock do they use?