Creditor denying any obligation to supply CCA....

[googler]

Morning All,

 

Did a CCA request on a creditor back in July. They failed to acknowledge or send ANYTHING within the 12 working days plus 30 day time constraints despite a reminder, so I reported them to TS.

Letter from them 2 weeks ago saying they were passing to DCA so I wrote saying they'd failed a CCA request stating that I'd enter into no further correspondance until their obligations under that CCA had been met.

This morning I got this letter, basically saying they'd supplied a sample CCA (which they hadn't) and that was all they was obliged to do.

 

The letter:

 

 

Dear Mug

Thank You for your letter dated 21st September and I have noted your comments and opinion on your liability to us for payment of the goods supplied to you.

In regards to your statements on liability under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, please note that The Office of Fair Trading and Trading Standards have acknowledged that, as defined by the Section 78 of The CCA 1974, The supply of an exact copy of the Credit Agreement that would have been signed when the Account was opened and, if required, any relevant financial information relating to the account since its inception is sufficient to comply with requests to provide a copy of the credit agreement. A sample Credit Agreement has already been provided for this purpose and full financial statements are sent to you every 28 days.

We would remind you that the original credit agreement was sent with your first order when the account was opened in August 2002. Our customers are asked to sign to return one copy to us and to keep their copy in a safe place should they decide to choose repayment by credit terms instead of making an immediate payment in full for the goods supplied. Your subsequent repayment decision demonstrates that the first option was your clear and obvious choice.

 

------------------------END OF LETTER QUOTE--------------------------

 

Now I'm Lay(wo)man on the in's n out's of the CCA, everything I know comes from advice from my learned friends on this these forums and this has stumped me.

In this letter they also say they wanna come to an arrangement with me and if I am experiencing hardship to fill in the 'Financial statement' enclosed with my 'payment offer' and list all other creditors.

 

What does this mean?

Thanks peeps

xxx

 

 

[Donel261]

Absolute pigs swill, thats the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard!!

 

Getting them to provide the documents always proves very hard because they cant, see my thread named Barclaycard/Cabot/Mackenzie Hall... if the company writing to you believe that is correct, why are my nemesis's not quoting the same spiel???

[JonCris]

A number of these companies are getting confused.

 

They only have the right to supply an unsigned copy agreement at the commencment of the contract. After all having just signed why would you need a copy with your signature. Also as a copy is posted its added security that someone is not going to get hold of all your details & SIGNATURE.

 

After this they MUST provide a signed copy if & when demanded as per the act

[NailPost]

If you used the template letter found on this forum and others and paid the statutory £1 for the details - a signed, true copy of the agreement, statement of accound and a deed of assignment (if applicable) the company are obliged under the CCA 1974 to supply them - end of story.

 

What you have received is bulls**t and you need do nothing more than report the company to the OFT and your Trading Standards office for non-compliance. Remember to send a copy of this letter when you do so.

 

I would not bother them with a reply and if their tame debt collectors start hassling you for cash tell them the matter is in dispute, you have asked for details and until these are supplied you will not discuss the matter further.

 

By the way who is this company?

[googler]

I would not bother them with a reply and if their tame debt collectors start hassling you for cash tell them the matter is in dispute, you have asked for details and until these are supplied you will not discuss the matter further.

 

By the way who is this company?

 

Hi Nail

 

The Company is Studio (cards and gifts).

 

I did everything you said in your first paragraph (CCA request asking for a true, signed copy, quoted the laws, sent the £1 etc). My instinct is to ignore it and see what happens, I smelt bulls**t the moment I read it.

 

The letter felt like this to me:

 

Dear Miss Googler

 

We got your letter about paying this debt.

We see that you made a CCA request and we breached this and we see that you know a bit about the CCAct, however, we know more than you do so we're gonna try confuse you. The laws and Acts you quoted you have misunderstood - we don't have to supply a signed true, copy - we only have to supply a sample CCA and we did that with your first order.

 

Excuse

Excuse

Excuse

 

The debt is yours and the debt is legally recoverable (they actually used this sentence!)

So, fill in the form so we know all your personal details, tell us how much you can afford to pay and we'll decide if we can accept this.

Stop being a pain in the a** and do as you're told.

Yours filthily

Studio

 

I have already reported them to TS for breaching the time limit and TS acknowledged that to me last week, TS said "Thank You for bringing this to our attention, we will make sure we address the issue of Creditor's abligations under the CCAct at our next meeting with the company in question".

 

I have two creditors on the go at the minute and BOTH failed to send me the CCA. The other creditor (two weeks after the time limit) sent me the 'sample' CCA (just an unsigned photocopy of their Agreement), however, I'm further along the line with the other creditor, and dealing with the DCA now. The DCA in that case told me last week they're taking me to court in 7 days if full payment isn't made (sorry, I digress).

 

So, the consensus is to ignore?

 

Thanks for the guidance

 

xxx

[jimfishybob]

Either that or invite them to sue you.

 

As long as you're not trying this as a tactic for debt avoidance they will back off.

 

If they don't and they take you to court, you have all correspondence showing that they have failed to supply requested documents and that you have behaved reasonably throughout the whole process.

 

They will have to explain to a judge why they haven't provided these docs and as a consequence the judge would be unlikely to rule in their favour. In fact he will probably rule that the debt IS unenforceable and it won't have cost you a penny.

 

JMHO

[googler]

As long as you're not trying this as a tactic for debt avoidance they will back off.

 

Thanks JFB,

On the point of 'debt avoidance'. My finances hit the skids in May and I just couldn't carry on paying what I was paying to these Creditors. At the time I wrote explaining and offered a reduced amount- They both refused and demanded I pay the the money I was falling behind with. I rang a debtline and they suggested I did the CCA request cos at the very least It'd buy me a bit of time and if they couldn't come up with the documents, they might then back-off from being quite so aggressive and accept my offer.

It's funny how, now they know I know about the CCAct they send me a form to offer a reduced payment, whereas back in June, they wasn't prepared to accept a reduced payment.

Half of me wants to fill in the form, get a payment schedule, the other half of me wants to force the issue.

I know that's the wrong attitude to take but the b*ggers have had me worried sick.

A question - If I fill in this form and make an offer but they refuse the offer can they still take it to court?

 

Thanks Guys

 

xxx

[jimfishybob]

Technically, yes.

 

However, even if they were successful, a court will only demand that you repay in installments you can afford.

 

Indeed, there is no legal requirement to fill in the form they sent you, (I suspect it's something like a 'Statement of Means') and this can also only be ordered by a court. (Though it would be sensible to have one prepared for the hearing should it ever get that far).

 

As you have already made a repayment plan offer in May, this will stand you in good stead should it go to court as the lender will also have to show why they didn't accept a perfectly reasonable offer of payment back then before it got to court stage.

 

In your position I would write a letter reiterating the offer you made in May, (and remind them of the fact that this offer was made in May), reiterating the fact that they are in breach of the CCA 1974 and reminding them of the fact that they have failed to provided a written copy of your consent to process any data that relates to you, (hopefully stalling the 'default' process but this is a work in progress). Explain that the offer in no way acknowledges any agreement , and without the requested paperwork you cannot ascertain how much is owed.

 

Basically you are in a strong bargaining position. They are most unlikely to take you to court as even if they obtain judgement in their favour, (which is unlikely, considering the above), the very worst that can happen is what you requested in the first instance.

[googler]

In your position I would write a letter reiterating the offer you made in May, (and remind them of the fact that this offer was made in May), reiterating the fact that they are in breach of the CCA 1974 and reminding them of the fact that they have failed to provided a written copy of your consent to process any data that relates to you, (hopefully stalling the 'default' process but this is a work in progress). Explain that the offer in no way acknowledges any agreement , and without the requested paperwork you cannot ascertain how much is owed.

 

Thank You for the mega-prompt response JFB!

I think I will take your advice (I know it's your 'opinion' etc and will not hold you responsible if it goes t i t s up!) but it seems like the most logical step. I want it over with, I hate dreading the post. At the end of the day....whether it goes to court or not, the debt still stands. I will, however, write disputing what they say about their obligations under the act and that the offer in no way acknowledges any agreement.

 

Really Appreciate your time.

 

xxx

[jimfishybob]

If you are to acknowledge a debt, just be sure to acknowledge A debt, (not THE debt), as this way you can still argue that you don't know how much it's for, further, ensure that your letter doesn't acknowledge an agreement or any of their terms and conditions.

 

The debt and the agreement are seperate things and should be treated as such.

 

Again, JMO.

[Arwen]

Section 61 and 127 of the CCA are your defence in court.

 

S61 (1) (a to c)-requirement to provdie documnet containg prescribed terms, requirement for signature of both debtor/creditor and their representative.

S127 (3) instructs the court to make no enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms was signed by the creditor/debtor.

 

I have defended (as a lay person) using this and been successful