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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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please help civil recover what should i do ? ashamed and stupid


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Well..4 of them appear to be 'shoplifting' cases, others are rather varied including one serious one involving £10,000 for a fake empolyee.

 

As to the 4 cases, the reference numbers they use like 001 are not standard court case numbers so its impossible to check, County Court cases are not published anywhere (as far as Im aware) unlike other courts/tribunals, etc

 

Many of those liosted are judgements in default, its not clear but it may be the case that som,e others are too., this doesnt prove anything, for example, I could issue a claim against Mr X, saying he owes me £100 for moondust..complete rubbish but should he fail to answer court correspondence I'd still win. It also begs the question if RLP are so confident why dont they start legal action in EVERY case, or do they pick and choose people they think are vunerable and less likely to turn up ?

 

Also there may well of been plenty of cases were RLP were unsuccessful, we simple do not know, and RLP are hardly transparent...RLP admit themselves that they only publish a 'selection'.

 

The case involving CAB is somewhat worrying and I'd be surprised if they genuinelly told someone to ignore court correspondence, RLP love to waffle on about Pre Action protocols but they spout crap..there is no real obligation to respond to anything in the pre-litigation period (a simple denial is all that is needed and apparently that is what was sent), I dont believe there is any need to get involved in heavy paperwork/correspondence at that stage.

 

In '003' cases I note a dig at a 'consumer' site :)

 

Andy

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Yeah, it's a bit concerning. What I make of the CAB one is that the reason it's come back to them was because the company were trying to negotiate settlement before court proceedings and this was what was being ignored. So then obviously when court proceedings were issued they wouldn't go back to the original settlement offer. So I don't think they ignored the court letters.

 

Basically the thing that worries me is, yes, there is no harm in ignoring the letters from the comapny, but what if I actually get hit with a court letter and it's too late to settle.

 

Based on reading in these forums it prob won't be as much as a 'fine' monetary wise, but I don't want to go to court etc, because I prob won't win as I did f**k up (excuse my french!) so will just be time consuming :(

 

I'm confused now.

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well dont be.

 

if there was more to 'pay' or anything 'to pay'

 

it would be the judicial system and the police from the off that does it

not some tinpot speculative invoice company.

 

its exactly the same as the private parking ticket

 

those that go to court

are either stoogies or relatives

or

are uncontested cases

 

forget them

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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but the police weren't involved and i'd like to keep it that way.

 

Surely the police and criminal court only cover the police costs and direct criminal damage?

 

therefore why would they have anything to do with the costs this store are seeking? Im a novice at this and get all my info online so maybe im wrong.

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RLP are in no way ANYTHING to do with any judicial system nor ANY legal statute at all

 

you are under NO legal obl to communicate with them

in any way shape or form.

NO rlp has ever latterly involved the police or the judicary system.

 

if they do anything at all it will be a civil action nothing criminal.

 

you need to rad the cab reports on the homepage of this forum.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Yeah, it's a bit concerning. What I make of the CAB one is that the reason it's come back to them was because the company were trying to negotiate settlement before court proceedings and this was what was being ignored. So then obviously when court proceedings were issued they wouldn't go back to the original settlement offer. So I don't think they ignored the court letters.

 

Basically the thing that worries me is, yes, there is no harm in ignoring the letters from the comapny, but what if I actually get hit with a court letter and it's too late to settle.

 

Based on reading in these forums it prob won't be as much as a 'fine' monetary wise, but I don't want to go to court etc, because I prob won't win as I did f**k up (excuse my french!) so will just be time consuming :(

 

I'm confused now.

 

This is quite simple..you can ignore correspondence from RLP but it would be foolish to ignore anything from the court for the simple fact that if you dont reply..then they WILL WIN by default.

 

The obligation to settle hasnt passed and in fact the court would still expect you to try..you can apply for mediation, make offers (perhaps without prejudice), or even Part 36 Offers (RLP's fave QC even mentions this, but perhaps in the wrong context as Part36 doesnt apply to small claims, which the majority are, even if some has strangely ended up on the fast track).

 

RLP's whole site whislt maybe not printing anything legally incorrect is still rather misleading especially in the way they pick and choose what to print.

 

As pointed out this has nothing to do with the Police, although RLP like to make lots of mention of them and try to give RLP some sort of peusdo-legal footing.

 

The various arguments/downloads they link to appear to be a slanging match back and forth between CAB/RLP and QC....I'd suggest none of them are 100% accurate.

 

Andy

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I get what you guys are saying about not being linked to criminal court, but I don't want to go to ANY court, when reading these forums, i get the impression that what they are claiming for etc is rubbish and has no legal grounds, however with some now going to court, surely this means it's not all rubbish and that i may be better off paying now and saving myself the stress?

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none are going to court

 

where did you get that from?

 

the cases have been over a good few years

 

in that time

 

1000's have totally ignored them.

 

stop panicing and get on with your life

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I get what you guys are saying about not being linked to criminal court, but I don't want to go to ANY court, when reading these forums, i get the impression that what they are claiming for etc is rubbish and has no legal grounds, however with some now going to court, surely this means it's not all rubbish and that i may be better off paying now and saving myself the stress?

 

Firstly..RLP list about 3 or 4 cases that have supposedly gone to court, they dont say whether they are default judgements and there is no way that you can verify these cases.

 

RLP dont admit how many cases they have lost..there may be lots !. It is well known that they have sent out many thousands if not tens of thousands of 'demands' with no intention of going anywhere near a court room.

 

Also I'd add a civil court (very likely a small claim) is nothing to be scared of, ive started and been defendant in various cases and have come away succesful, dont let people bully you, thats no way to conduct your life !

 

Why would you be better off if you pay now ?. RLP will be better off with YOUR money, it wont go to court..even in the very unlikely evenmt it did, you can still defend your position..the outcome is far from certain....The cases they put on their site are only there to intimidate others..dont let them.

 

Andy

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I was saying better off as I was in the wrong and then i wouldnt have to worry wether or not they would take me to court. I know you said they won't, but that sounds more like you don't expect them too, rather than they have no case. So i'm buggered if im the unlucky one that goes to court!

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I was saying better off as I was in the wrong and then i wouldnt have to worry wether or not they would take me to court. I know you said they won't, but that sounds more like you don't expect them too, rather than they have no case. So i'm buggered if im the unlucky one that goes to court!

 

Not really, people get worried with the mention of court and somehow link it to criminality, county courts are for civil claims, the small claims ttrack for claims under £5000, soon to be £10,000 is an informal meeting, normally in a judges room and nothing to be afraid of.

 

But its all upto you, youve been given lots of advice here, download both the CAB reports, both the RLP replies and the QC's comments and have a read through all the points of view and decide for yourself.

 

Andy

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Thats fair enough. I was just getting conflicted by the info as some on here suggest there is no legal ground for these claims and but others say there is. If there is a legal ground for it (which is the direction i'm leaning) then i'll take it more seriously and ensure if I contact anyone it's done properly.

 

End of the day, it may not be a stressful court scenario, but it's still a position I put myself in and don't want to have to go through the scenario again, just put it behind me.

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RLP are in no way ANYTHING to do with any judicial system nor ANY legal statute at all

 

you are under NO legal obl to communicate with them

in any way shape or form.

NO rlp has ever latterly involved the police or the judicary system.

 

if they do anything at all it will be a civil action nothing criminal.

 

you need to rad the cab reports on the homepage of this forum.

 

dx

 

They banned b me from B n Q what will happen If I go in to a different branch I don't realy want to go in but my dad wants me to get something for him (and pay for it)

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none have face recog software so dont worry at all

 

all they can do is ask you to leave anyhow

 

again, THERE IS NO LAW INVOLVED

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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no its just spin to fleece you.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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hello just been to rlp website and read thru the cases, the case no 001 and 002 mentions shop lifting and also mentions about repeat offenders, the amount rlp claims to be covered from teh claimant in case 0002 seems to be very high, any one has any comment on that case at all

 

Well..we have no facts in any of the cases, they are impossible to verify, the ref numbers used are not actual court numbers so who knows !..They might all be 100% fabricated,

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  • 4 weeks later...
hello just been to rlp website and read thru the cases, the case no 001 and 002 mentions shop lifting and also mentions about repeat offenders, the amount rlp claims to be covered from teh claimant in case 0002 seems to be very high, any one has any comment on that case at all

 

I just had a look. Surprisingly emotive and unprofessional style of descriptions, lots of attacks upon others, and with the key questions of liability glossed over. Interestingly they are unable to cite even one case of a defended RLP claim being upheld in court.

 

The blustering tone reminds me of those supposed internet piracy solicitors who were always yelling the odds about how strong their case was, right up until it collapsed under them.

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  • 3 months later...

I am employed as a plain clothed store detective for a well known household named retail company. I catch shoplifters on a daily basis and in 99% of the cases civil recovery is issued.

I aint employed by b and q so quite frankly couldnt care about their losses but my advice is is pay. Most of you on here obviously dont know about civil recovery. It is a legal company that acts on behalf of retailers. In all my cases a civil recovery letter is given and copy signed by the detainee.

 

Proof of a reciept is enclosed with all my paperwork along with cctv footage so if the detainee does decide to question what happened its all backed up.

 

You could leave it and not pay but civil recovery do go through the courts and any costs that have occured for civil recovery to do that will be paid for by the detainee.

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rubbish.

 

its not for any RLP to be judge and jury

 

if something is owed, then its fo the courts to decide that

 

not some tin pot RLP to issue 'speculative invoices.'

 

NEVER EVER pay RLP!!

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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You could leave it and not pay but civil recovery do go through the courts and any costs that have occured for civil recovery to do that will be paid for by the detainee.

 

Hello there. Have you seen the result of the recent Oxford court case?

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I am employed as a plain clothed store detective for a well known household named retail company. I catch shoplifters on a daily basis and in 99% of the cases civil recovery is issued.

I aint employed by b and q so quite frankly couldnt care about their losses but my advice is is pay. Most of you on here obviously dont know about civil recovery. It is a legal company that acts on behalf of retailers. In all my cases a civil recovery letter is given and copy signed by the detainee.

 

Proof of a reciept is enclosed with all my paperwork along with cctv footage so if the detainee does decide to question what happened its all backed up.

 

You could leave it and not pay but civil recovery do go through the courts and any costs that have occured for civil recovery to do that will be paid for by the detainee.

 

I have some simple questions for you:

 

 

1. When you say you catch shoplifters, can you confirm that the police are called in every case, and that these people are all charged and convicted in a criminal court? Or do you mean that you detain people you suspect of shoplifting?

 

2. Can you produce substantive evidence to back up your claims that 'civil recovery' do go to court - such as case numbers? If you don't have the case numbers, just tell us in how many cases you have appeared as a witness for the claimant, and in how many of those cases the claimant was successful.

 

3. Since you stopped being a parking attendant, what specialist training have you undertaken with regard to the legal issues surrounding civil recovery, in general and specifically in the issues around vulnerable people, and liability?

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I am employed as a plain clothed store detective for a well known household named retail company. I catch shoplifters on a daily basis and in 99% of the cases civil recovery is issued.

I aint employed by b and q so quite frankly couldnt care about their losses but my advice is is pay. Most of you on here obviously dont know about civil recovery. It is a legal company that acts on behalf of retailers. In all my cases a civil recovery letter is given and copy signed by the detainee.

 

Proof of a reciept is enclosed with all my paperwork along with cctv footage so if the detainee does decide to question what happened its all backed up.

 

You could leave it and not pay but civil recovery do go through the courts and any costs that have occured for civil recovery to do that will be paid for by the detainee.

 

Firstly define shoplifters, people who clearly are out to steal or an OAP who mistakenly doesnt pay for an item ?

 

CAG is well aware of civil recovery (in fact we appear to know rather more than you), there have been many thousands of these invoices issued but only a handful of court cases (some are published on RLP's site, but there is no way of checking their authenticity and some are very dubious), there is only one case that I/We/CAB are aware of and that is the aforementioned Oxford case, if you are unaware of it, I suggest finding out more before posting here, in that case, the claim for damages by RLP/ The store was firmly thrown out.

 

Even if succesful in court, it would be a small claim and therefore costs would be very limited, simply put it costs RLP/The Store far more to pursue court action then they could ever recover.

 

Andy

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