Cap1 & CCA return

[un1boy]

As should the interest rate, which more often than not is missing, as I'm sure it was from your Lloyds TSB copy Mcuth

 

Mike

 

Nor was it on my HSBC one - so, does this automatically rendor the agreement unenforcable? If so, can they get a court order to enforce it?

[ladybird17]

Uni - I never said I didn't think a judge would act - wasn't me!

[un1boy]

Uni - I never said I didn't think a judge would act - wasn't me!

 

Oh, sorry ladybird!! :-/

 

I retract my last statement then!!

 

Sorry, I blame it on wokring at the weekend: It should be made illegal!!

[JonCris]

I am sorry to go back over old ground but can you point me to where the regs and legislation says certain parts must be in the signature document rather than just in the T&C's

 

Here you go

 

The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order.The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give notice of cancellation rights in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and 63, section 127(4) precludes the court from making an enforcement order.

 

Section 65(1) provides that an improperly executed agreement shall be enforceable only "on an order of the court." Section 127 gives the court power to make orders for the enforcement of agreements that are, for various reasons, improperly executed. But subsection (3) provides that a court shall not make an enforcement order for an agreement that does not comply with section 61(1)(a) unless the debtor signed a document containing "all the prescribed terms." & you don't sign the T's & C's

[Mike220359]

I am sorry to go back over old ground but can you point me to where the regs and legislation says certain parts must be in the signature document rather than just in the T&C's

 

Try this link for the draft 2005 discussions which have vital info

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BA02B3B2-F6D4-4EE0-BDB8-825BB582F1C7/0/oft801.pdf

 

Mike

[un1boy]

Here you go

 

The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order.The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give notice of cancellation rights in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and 63, section 127(4) precludes the court from making an enforcement order.

 

Section 65(1) provides that an improperly executed agreement shall be enforceable only "on an order of the court." Section 127 gives the court power to make orders for the enforcement of agreements that are, for various reasons, improperly executed. But subsection (3) provides that a court shall not make an enforcement order for an agreement that does not comply with section 61(1)(a) unless the debtor signed a document containing "all the prescribed terms."& you don't sign the T's & C's

 

 

So, an agreement which does not have the APR on it cannot be enforced at all?

[JonCris]

correct!...........I do hope the bank shareholders are reading this

[un1boy]

correct!

 

Sorry to be dumb, just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

 

So, the APR HAS to be on the actual agreement that is signed?

 

If they put it in the terms and conditions, but not on the agreement, then it cannot be enforced, even with a court order?

[InKogneeToh]

Sorry to be dumb, just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

 

So, the APR HAS to be on the actual agreement that is signed?

 

If they put it in the terms and conditions, but not on the agreement, then it cannot be enforced, even with a court order?

 

Either the actual APR or a statement of how it is to be calculated MUST be on the sig. doc.

 

Regards, Pam

[joneshousehold]

Thanks for that Pam. Is it this one?

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CC4C7B5C-2152-4EC7-B850-C3B6E646869D/0/oft018.pdf

 

That seems to say the signature document must contain

- correct heading

- name & address for trader and customer

- details of default charges

- financial and related particulars ie amount of credit, total charge for credit if known, timing and amount of repayments and APR

- protection & remedies ie right to cancel and loss/misuse of credit token where appropriate

- signature box

 

The one I have shows some of these on the front which is signed and the rest are in the T&C's which the card issuer says was printed on the reverse of the 'agreement'. Would the reverse of the form count as the signature document (whether they could prove that it was on the reverse is another matter!)

I can see a comment that protections and remedies can be on the reverse providing that it is mentioned on the front. This implies that the front only is considered to be the signature document.

The next thing I need to sort out is if there were any changes before 2003 as my agreement is dated 1992

[un1boy]

Ok, so that then means, that although I've been sent a signed agreement by a lender which is unenforcable because they have not sent the terms etc......that it cannot be enforced at all beacuse it doesn't have the APR or a statement about it on it? Even with a court order!?!?!!!

 

Pam, what should the statement look like? Calculations?

[joneshousehold]

D'Oh - thanks Mike. I took so long in posting, you had already pointed me to the same site.

[JonCris]

The front is considered the signature document......At the very least the front of the doc should allude to the specific terms on the back

[un1boy]

The front is considered the signature document......At the very least the front of the doc should allude to the specific terms on the back

 

So, if it refers to the terms on the back then the APR etc are classed as being on the sig doc?

[un1boy]

Mine says "I have read and agree to be bound by the terms and conditons attached"

[JonCris]

No it must refer to the APR being on the back..........It must be specific....Although I suspect a court would expect such important info as the APR (as most are) to be on the front above the signature

[JonCris]

Mine says "I have read and agree to be bound by the terms and conditons attached"

 

Meaningless.......As has already been stated the specific terms (which means amongst others the term., the amount, the interest, the amount of credit, the total sum payable, your rights etc:) MUST be on the signature document

[un1boy]

No it must refer to the APR being on the back..........It must be specific....Although I suspect a court would expect such important info as the APR (as most are) to be on the front above the signature

 

Right, so my agreement doesn't have any of that.....so the bank cannot get it enforced whatsoever?

 

Any idea of a letter I can send? lol....I've sent them loads, andone saying it isn't enforcable because of this, but they have completely ignored it and also it's taken over 8 weeks, so off the FOS I go!!

 

I'm so happy now!!

[InKogneeToh]

Thanks for that Pam. Is it this one?

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CC4C7B5C-2152-4EC7-B850-C3B6E646869D/0/oft018.pdf

 

Hi

 

That's similar but it has been amended to include any 2004 changes - which came into effect 31/05/05. Mine is the pre- amendment version so applicable to all old agreements. A kind member is going to post up a link to my version shortly so you can read and compare.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Ok, so that then means, that although I've been sent a signed agreement by a lender which is unenforcable because they have not sent the terms etc......that it cannot be enforced at all beacuse it doesn't have the APR or a statement about it on it? Even with a court order!?!?!!!

 

Pam, what should the statement look like? Calculations?

 

Hopefully, a copy of the 2003 OFT doc. will be available as a link on this thread soon so you can read what is required.

 

Regards, Pam

[JonCris]

Right, so my agreement doesn't have any of that.....so the bank cannot get it enforced whatsoever?

 

Any idea of a letter I can send? lol....I've sent them loads, andone saying it isn't enforcable because of this, but they have completely ignored it and also it's taken over 8 weeks, so off the FOS I go!!

 

I'm so happy now!!

 

In your letter simply specify the relevant regs whilst stating that you consider their agreement to be unenforcable..........it's for them to pick the bones out of it

[un1boy]

In your letter simply specify the relevant regs whilst stating that you consider their agreement to be unenforcable..........it's for them to pick the bones out of it

 

Regs? in terms of sec 60 requirements?

[Seahorse]

OK folks, you can right click and save link as ... HERE

 

Let me know if you can't download it for any reason.

 

Seahorse

[un1boy]

I've sent a sec 78 request to the bank whom have just retracted their notice of closure to me and said I can keep my accounts open - do u think they will ask me to close my accounts as they haven't sent the agreement to me within the specified time!?

[elizabeth1]

I've sent a sec 78 request to the bank whom have just retracted their notice of closure to me and said I can keep my accounts open - do u think they will ask me to close my accounts as they haven't sent the agreement to me within the specified time!?

 

 

Is there by any chance a template letter on here to send to Banks asking them not to close accounts??