Changing claim amount from Prelim to LBA

[bill-k]

Hi Redsue - I'm a newbie at this, but have checked out a few threads now, and slowly getting the hang. Heck of a learning curve. I personally decided NOT to chase the bank for the interest which they charged me, as it was indeed one helluva job to add it all up. In my opinion, that interest was perhaps the ONE element of their usury that they were (arguably) allowed to keep.

The bit that they are now finding they were definitely NOT supposed to keep was the penalty charges themselves - which are easy to tot up if you have your statements still, or your DPA SAR reply. Enter those on to a spreadsheet first of all. Now check your 8% Statutory interest column (this is set at 8% Simple). Next I suggest you add Columns for compound interest at the HIGHEST rate that the bank charges. If you check out Mindzai and Lucid's joint claims, then you will find their spreadsheet & misc info - excellent stuff. Compare the Compound Interest at Contractual Rate against Statutory Interest at 8% Simple and you might be amazed. I personally decided to just claim Contractual Interest and let them keep their initial interest charges they made to your account(s). It is a b*$$@r to work out, and I don't think it ever amounts to that much, anyway. You can then demonstrate to the Court (if need be) that you are being reasonable by doing that.

Check out the "New Way of Looking at Interest Thread."

 

Holding your hand...

 

Bill.

[bill-k]

Yep - as Dolly says - send out your LBA next. I personally prefer to give them a few days extra, just so's they can't whinge that you didn't give them enough time !

 

Before you do, though, I really think you should decide fer sure exactly what it is you're going to claim via the Court (and the bank WILL make you go that far, you can be sure !!!) You have to be sure that the claim you submit to Small Claims Court is the maximum you think you're entitled to, and wish to claim back. As (I think) BankFodder put it, you can't go back later for the rest ! This is just my own thought process, but try this:

 

1. You want to claim the penalty charges taken from your account(s). No question - you're going to. Do it.

 

2. Do you want to claim back the interest that the bank(s) charged you on those penalty charges ? I decided not to, as I was not permanently overdrawn, and that interest didn't amount to that much, anyway. From what I can see, you might have been charged a lot more than me, though, so you have to decide whether or not it is worth the effort involved in calculating and claiming that interest.

 

3. Having decided that, you now have to decide whether or not YOU intend to claim interest YOURSELVES from THEM. If you just claim "Statutory Interest" OR "Contractual Interest" on those penalty charges (and whatever interest was charged to your account on them, if you decided "yes" to question 2). You can, of course, decide to claim neither, if it might cause you to lose sleep !! AS IF.

I'm not sure, but I suspect that there is a bit of confusion surrounding this issue. The interest that THE BANK charged YOU (either at authorised or unauthorised rate) is one thing - but the interest that YOU can now claim back from THE BANK on those charges is another. Now THAT interest is what I think you should consider going for - particularly if we're going back some years !!

If you use Mindzai's spreadsheet, you will be able to see the difference between claiming Statutory and Contractual Interest. In both cases, this is interest which has not actually been charged to your account(s), but which you can now claim yourselves on the penalty charges made. This is truly "QUID PRO QUO !!!" (Now...was that quote from Hannibal Lecter, or Del Boy ? Oh, well, "Mange Tout" I say !!!)

 

Statutory Interest is set at a paltry 8% p.a., and is calculated as Simple Interest. It is generally accepted by the Courts without fuss, but is a lot less than the banks were charging you on the money that you had from them !!

 

Contractual Interest is interest set at the rate that the bank were prepared to charge YOU and is almost invariably compound. It is of course subject to their objection, but they cannot reasonably object (and haven't done so yet as far as I know) to an interest rate that THEY THEMSELVES CHARGED YOU !!! I don't think any have objected, yet !! This is where I suggest you check Mindzai & Lucid's stuff. Basically, their Particulars of Claim allow you to claim the maximum rate ("Unauthorised rate") of Contractual Interest in the first instance, but set up fallback positions ("Authorised rate" - then "Statutory rate") for claiming interest at the lower rates if it is contested. I questioned them on this, but their answers make sense. Claim Contactual Interest at the "Unauthorised" rate as your primary claim, but claim it at the "Authorised" rate as a secondary fallback position, and finally claim "Statutory" rate as the final position. It might seem odd to you (it did to me) having to overtly state your fallback positions. I put this to Mindzai, who filled me in to the effect that "if you don't actually claim it then the Court will not award it."

If you have a long history of these charges, then Contractual Interest is worth consideration.

 

5. Decide whether you are going to claim for charges made over six years ago. If you are going to, then give it extra thought. I was going to, then Glenn UK gave me some wisdom on the "A New Way of Looking at Interest" thread. I have now decided to go for charges up to 6 yrs back (plus Contractual Interest) first of all. Then I am considering going for the earlier stuff separately as another job, at a later date. I don't think there is any problem in doing that, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T SIGN ONE OF THOSE "IN FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT" FORMS !!!

 

4. Check out the "A New Way of Looking at Interest" thread, if you haven't already. The contributions there are excellent stuff (present company excepted !). I think if you can show the bank(s) that you at least have done some work on this, then they won't consider making yours the "Test Case."

 

Hope this makes sense - and helps !!

 

Bill.

[bill-k]

Hi Redsue,

I feel your pain !! Yes, it's heavy going some of it, innit ? Sorry you weren't able to download Mindzai's spreadsheet. You might have to be patient if you're not on Broadband, as it is fairly big. But it's worth it I reckon. I note that Vampiress is "re-vampng" (heh-heh) her spreadsheets, so that might be worth waiting for, though.

There are some on-line Compound interest calculators, where you can make a quick check on a particular charge. Basically, the further back in time you go, the more attractive Compound becomes (by definition !) Try comparing the interest on your earliest charge with one of these - then make your decision.

I can't work out how to send you a link to one, here, but try Google. I think there is a link on the "New Way..." thread somewhere.

If it comes to it, I can send you the formulae to put in to a standard Excel spreadsheet, so you can tot up the whole lot and compare between 8% Statutory and (too much)% Contractual. Depends on how much of a "techie" you are, really. Like I think BankFodder expressed earlier - "You can't go back for the rest, later" - so take the time to compare and decide.

Hope this helps,

Bill.

[bill-k]

Sorry, forgot to mention.

I've sent off four County Court claims (for initial charges plus Contractual Interest !!) in the past week, plus one LBA. Also currently awaiting 2 DPA SAR replies (Ho-hum...) Have had a couple of "goodwill" cheques meanwhile, which I cashed, but which I consider as partial payment only !!

Also helping In-Laws to open parachute account, then going for some more. DPA SAR sent. It's worth getting the In-Laws to OWE ME !!!

Roll on, Christmas !!

[bill-k]

Cheers UKAviator. I notice you have a 5K+ claim filed today. Just keep the cockpit door firmly locked until you're taxi-ing off the runway !!!

[bill-k]

Redsue - yes it might be the old Apple Mac -v- MS incompatibility problem. I'm using Windows XP and managed to down Midzai's sheet and Vamp's earlier ones. Her new ones use the Google facility, and I haven't yet been able to down them !!

Ah well - C'est la Guerre !!

There are more posts on the "A New Way..." thread.

When you've cooled your brain down a bit, that is !!

[bill-k]

Redsue - DON'T send the LBA yet. You are not obliged to send it at 14 days on the dot. Don't send until you're sure, PLEASE !!!

I haven't checked Taylormandy's case, yet (see Dolly's post above) - but please do. Please also check the most recent posts on "A New Way..."

FWIW I had to come down off the ceiling when I finally checked my spreadsheet totals using Contractual Interest Compounded Daily. I had to double and triple-check everything with on-line calculators before I'd believe it. THAT is why the banks use compound - it looks innocuous, but it creeps up on you and they know it. Don't feel guilty unless you think they do !!

There was an old fable about a Chinese bloke who asked for a debt to be repaid by putting one grain of rice on the first square of a chess-board, two grains on the next, four grains on the next. The debtor agreed, thinking the lender was nuts. The entire rice harvest of the country was used up before they got to square 64. Try working out 2 to the power of 64.

 

May I appeal to your artistic side, then ?

- USE BOLD STROKES !!!

 

Don't let this opportunity to come up with a masterpiece slip away without all due consideration. I beg you.

 

I'm not sure how to PM anybody here, yet, as I know PM'ing the Moderators is frowned on, but if you & hubby wanna swop some stuff, I'd be glad to. If we're considering claiming big figures, it's probably best to talk in whispers. Careless talk & all that...

[bill-k]

Redsue - I'm glad you're hanging back. Take up Dolly's offer to PM her - she's Platinum with 1,525 brownie points (posts). I'm Newbie with 32. No need to PM me, really, unless you want to. I won't feel slighted !!

FWIW by way of a single example I have one charge (the earliest un-estimated charge, in fact) of £9.00 on my spreadsheet, which was charged in January, 1991. It attracts £11.29 Simple 8% Judicial interest, but £97.71 at 17.08% AER Compounded Daily !!! I couldn't believe it at first. Punch that example in on your spreadsheet and/or ask Dolly to check it. By keeping that money all this time, the bank has earned AT LEAST that much on it, either by lending to others or re-lending it back to me !! It's yours, not theirs - BELIEVE IT.

By the way, if you Google something like "Compound Interest Calculator" there are a couple of them. The one I preferred (although it will not give identical results to the spreadsheet, as it doesn't compound on a daily basis) is provided by a firm of solicitors by the name of "Arghyrakis" (or similar). I can't seem to put click-on links in my messages here, otherwise I'd give it to you direct.

Dolly - thanks for the bigger picture snapshot. Yes, I guess they seem like big figures to us little guys, but you can see the whole mountain from where you are. Good to know.

[bill-k]

Redsue - welcome back from the brink - I'm glad you're re-considering.

 

I found my interest rates by Googling the card or bank, and checking out their actual AER or APR rates from there. You might have to dig a bit deeper than the first or home page to get them but they're there somewhere. I've just done it and Nationwide current account shows 7.75% authorised (or 7.25% if you have a mortgage with them), and 24.9% unauthorised EAR rates.

 

Be aware - please - that just punching in the higher Contractual rate on the Simple spreadsheet just gives you Simple interest. I would still go for Compound if you are going to claim Contractual rate. After all, Compound calculation is part of the same contract. By claiming at Contractual rate, but calculating in simple form, you're basing your claim on a half-measure.

 

I don't know how conversant you are with spreadsheets (I'm slowly getting the hang with Excel myself), but if you click on the "Interest" boxes you will see a formula appear in the toolbar above. For F9 it will be something like "=(C9*$K$18/365)*E9" - this takes the annual interest rate you punched in to K18 and divides it by 365 to give the daily equivalent. It then multiplies the charge in C9 by this percentage to give the actual daily interest on that charge. It then finally multiplies that by E9 (the number of days since the charge). It is calculated daily, but it is NOT Compound. Try adding another column to compare. Copy the column F, then substitute another formula in the Interest column. Try this:-"=C9*((1+($K$18/365))^E9)-C9" - which is the formula for calculating compound interest.

 

Before you go using it in a LBA spreadsheet, though, you have to apply another formula to work out the actual rate to use from the AER. Mindzai has done this in his already, but you can do it this way:- Label a box "AER" (say...F1 for instance), and punch in the AER to that. Next, label a box "Annual rate" (say...F2), format it to use percentages to 3 places, and punch in the following formula in the function toolbox:"=365*(((1+F1)^(1/365))-1)" - THIS is the rate you should use in box K18. You could transfer this formula directly to K18 or simply punch in the function "=F2" into K18.

 

You should get exactly the same result from Midzai's spreadsheet. The difference is that Mindzai has done it very tidily, whilst my way is doing it the long way. It helped me understand what was going on, though. Having said that, I'm more of a techie than an artie, so we might not be hitting the spot here. But whatever you do - don't let the bank keep a penny more than they are entitled to - please !!!!

[bill-k]

I've recently had an interesting chat with Vampiress, who along with words of encouragement, also expressed her view that such a degree of precision may not be necessary, and indeed may be frightening people away. I see her point, and she sees mine, I think.

 

In the end, I agree with her that we are all here to have our say, and make our points whether they be major or minor. We make our contributions, and take away what we wish from the Forum. But finally, we must decide on our chosen route, and it must be the route we feel safest taking.

 

As you will no doubt be aware, I shall be going for max rate, using max precision (I can't help it - it's a kind of compulsive behaviour disorder with us techies !!)

 

Redsue - in the light (or penumbra ? ) of Vampiress's recently imparted wisdom, I feel I should say "don't let us precision-geeks bully you." I've posted some stuff in "A New Way..." ("Geek Alley" ), if you want to take a look.

 

Stick with Dolly, and tread your chosen path knowing that it is your choice.

 

Know, also, that - in the best possible way - "Every step you take, every claim you stake, I'll be watching you."

 

Now go for it - seeya.

 

Bill.

[bill-k]

Glad to see you're really going for it, Redsue. So you finally believed your figures. Brill.

Thanks due to Dolly, no doubt !!

[bill-k]

Great stuff, Redsue. Funny, that's what I ended up doing - I used Mindzai's ss first of all, but wasn't sure (like you weren't) about the huge figures. So I set about working it out for myself, using Vamps' Simple SS, with those compound formulae I worked out, then compared my results with Mindzai's. I ended up printing out the Vamps simple sheets with columns showing all 3 rates: Unauthorised and Authorised (componded daily), then Statutory 8% simple. I used Mindzai's Claim Particulars to claim either of the 3 rates "in the alternative."

Like you, now, I'm just waiting. Ain't it funny how much junk mail arrives in the post when you're waiting for something special ? !!!

[bill-k]

Hi Redsue - Thanks for asking. I did in fact receive no less than FOUR "sod off's" from NatWest (apparently that's what they call them, according to one of our friendly bank staff members on-site !). So I sent the claim in to Southend SCC, and heard nothing, then finally (today, as it 'appens) I got TWO letters. The first, from the County Court with the N205A Notice of Issue, stating that the claim will be deemed to have been served on 22/09/06. The second with the N9 & N10 Acknowledgement of Service forms. They (RBS) have stated that they intend to defend all of the claim in the High Court of Justice, Queen's Bench Division, Commercial Court, Royal Courts of Justice !!!

 

AS IF. So they're trying to scare me witless. I guess they'll do the same to you. This move gives them a further 28 days to string this out, while the likes of you & I are expected to wet our pants and give in. Me? Yes - I wet my pants - bloody laughing !! What happens here is that either:

a) we throw in the towel, thinking that we'll have our case scrutinized at the Old Bailey. THEY WOULDN'T DARE.

b) we don't blink. THEY will make a "last-minute" paltry offer of settlement before it gets that far. THEY WISH.

c) we still don't blink. THEY have to pay all we claimed before it goes to Court. There is no way they could afford to lose at the Old Bailey, and they would. They know it, but they are hoping that we don't.

 

I have to admit I didn't use MCOL as they don't allow exemption from Court fees if you're receiving I.R. Tax Credits (which we are), so I used the old snail-mail system. Apparently, there is limited space on the MCOL claim page for much more than "I want my money back, you ankers !" I think other postings here mention sending in detailed Particulars of Claim to MCOL via snail-mail. If you're using Mindzai's (or similar) Details of Claim, then you will need to do this I think, as you will need to list the amounts (e.g. the 8% option) claimed "in the alternative."

 

You got your parachutes - good (qualify for a free case of wine, did we ?)

 

It's empowering innit, this CAG/BAG bunch of geezers. I'm also doing MBNA. Another story - another day (I've had my Friday booze, so I might wax a little too lyrical !!) Remind me if I don't tell.

 

If you're not desperate for the cash, then I'd suggest that you give them a few more days than you threatened. It helps with your image as the good guy, if push comes to shove. As long as you don't cut it short, you don't have to stick rigidly to your deadline.

 

You doin' good, babe.

[bill-k]

However, I know that Mindzai included a fall back option to the effect of- can I have this amount (xx%), or this (xx%) if not I'll have the 8% instead. But personally I don't feel comfortable with that. I also know that you're pushed for space on the MCOL form.

Any ideas my mate? :?

 

I'm not even sure I can still get into my suit, these days. I really better check, to see if the moths got into it first !!

Crash has answered your N1 query I think. As regards Mindzai's Particulars (I'm sure he won't mind us discussing them behind his back ) - questioned him, as it looked like all those options made him seem so unsure of his case. His reply made sense. As I understand it, the Court cannot award anything which you haven't claimed. Setting out the alternatives effectively puts a legally acceptable safety-net under your primary claim. If (and I mean IF) it gets to Court, AND the bank successfully argues that the unauthorised rate is unfair (that's a big ASIF), then the Court can only award you the charges without interest. They cannot award any other interest if it's not claimed in the alternative. So you claim the Contractual Authorised rate, and then Statutory as a final fallback, should they successfully argue that Contractual doesn't apply at all.

I thought it showed a weakness, but it apparently shows you know a bit more about their game than yer average punter - or that "you know a man who does" !!

 

There is a possibility that a Court clerk will return your claim as incorrect because they are not used to yer average bod putting in such long claims. They better get used to it. I returned my papers with a polite letter explaining, and am now waiting. Mindzai & Lucid say that theirs went through OK.

 

HTH.

 

Stick at it, gal.

[bill-k]

PS Redsue - I think it was Tim who put it another way, as well. Using the alternatives makes it a simple decision for the Judge. Instead of the possibility of legal haggling over how much, it becomes a multiple-choice - A, B or C. Easier all round, I should think, so it gets you brownie points.

Just hope the Judge doesn't ask to phone a friend - or even worse, says "...but we don't want to give you that...!!"

[bill-k]

Well, at least our Chris can afford to maintain a few skeletons ( cough, cough !!)

 

I should think you can print out BF's PDF N1 form, then fill it in by hand, or you can do the same with a copy from your local CC. I did neither.

Sorry, being a techie, I got on to the HMCS site, and downed a load of info & forms from there. Worth a browse. What you can do there is open a PDF file of the N1 form, then fill it in online, then print it off (don't forget - 3 copies). It looks nice and neat like that, but you'll need your claim details ready, as you can't save it and edit it later. You still have to delete some options by hand, and sign it, of course. I just put in "attached" in the Detailed Particulars of Claim section, then sent my details on a separate sheet (using Mindzai's example).

I sent in three separately stapled sets of the following to the SCC:-

N1 form (printed on 2 sides - in black & white, colour's run out on mine !!);

Detailed Particulars of Claim (on separate sheet);

Schedule of charges (Spreadsheet printout);

N1A (2 sides of Help info - not sure if needed, but sent for politeness)

- so that's 3 sets of 4 sheets.

The only bit I had to leave the house for was to post the claim. As good as MCOL as far as I'm concerned - and if you have detailed Particulars, then it's probably better. MCOL uses less paper, though, as I expect you only have to file one copy online - so it's greener !!

 

Us hubbys are good at that trick, ain't we? Get you all excited, then doze off on the sofa, completely unaware of the Niagara of juices that we've just accidentally started !! Never mind, maybe you can retaliate later with "Look what I've spent our little bonus on...!!"

 

I better go, I'm....feeling a....bit.....................

................................................................................................

.................ZZZZZZ.............ZZZZZZZ!!!

[bill-k]

Hi Redsue,

I'm just off out so I'll look closer tonight, and let you know anything else I can see. At the moment, it looks like you're claiming compound interest in the primary claim, but s.69 in the alternative. Remember that this is Simple, whereas the 7.75% is Compound, so you would get more from that if you included it I think.

I personally prefer to state "Compounded Daily at an annual rate of XX%" for my interest claim.

I've always posted my claims, so I can't say for sure about taking it in personally. If it's local, you might as well. The worst they can do is tell you they need a check, or they need it posted. Yes, three copies of everything.

Catchulater,

Bill.

[bill-k]

Redsue, I've had a closer look and, apart from my earlier suggestions, the only other query I have is with your alternative s.69 claim. It is claimed from one single date, as opposed to being claimed from the date of each transaction.

I'm no expert, though, so try and get the opinion of a higher-standing member or a Mod if you can.

I'm off away for a week, so will be offline for a bit. Anything urgent, send me tonite and I'll check before I go, if I can.

 

You shouldn't need luck, so I won't wish you it. I wish you, strength, resolve, bloody-mindedness, determination, and the ability to be courteous and merciful to the vanquished !!

 

.....Oh, and loads of patience !!!

 

Go get 'em, gal.

 

Bill.

[bill-k]

Yee-Har !! Ride 'em cowboy !! :grin:

 

Just got back from hols today. Bermuda's nice (they tell me). Nice is good, but better in Cannes. Weymouth woz wet, though - I know that for a fact !!! Oh well, it was a break from routine. Got a week away in a caravan with Tesco Clubcard tokens (another Martin Lewis idea !!) Kids enjoyed it.

 

Excellent news, Redsue - they've as good as caved in. It looks like they tried to pay you the basic amount, but without the Contractual interest, and hoped you'd BOTTLE OUT !!! LOL+ROTFL !!! You won't need me to tell you, now, though, will you ? You've got 'em by the bits - now pull & twist - they're almost asking you to do it !!! :grin:

 

...I almost think they'll pay up, and beg you for more punishment !!

 

Who's in charge, now, eh ??

 

Good for me, too. We got back from hols and ploughed into the mail, as yer do. Lo & behold, our NW (NatWest, now RBOS) had sent a cheque for the full amount claimed. It was just £125, but it included ('ere...get this):-

" The return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £60.00 and interest charged thereon in the sum of £23.67 " and...

" the additional costs incurred by the Claimant in the preparation, writing and sending of two letters to the Defendant pursuant to this claim - at the rate of £6.00 per letter - in the sum of £12.00, and also costs in the preparation, writing and sending of this claim to the Court in the sum of £30.00. "

 

On a smaller scale to yours, but a victory of the principles.

 

This was the crew who were gonna see me at the Old Bailey !!! I might send them the cleaning bill for my suit, anyway !!

 

Here's lookin' at you, kid !!

 

Who's next....Competition time. What DOES MBNA really stand for ?? !!

 

MayBe No Answer ?

My Balance Not Addup ?

More Bloody Naughty Additions ?

 

...somebody grab the mike, and have a go.

[bill-k]

FWIW, Redsue, I agree with Vamp.

 

I believe that, as long as you haven't signed in Full & Final Settlement, then your full claim still stands. You're being tolerant of their inability to pay it all at once, poor souls, that's all. Until they've paid in full, or let it go to Court, they still owe you the rest.

 

Unless, of course, you decide to accept the partial settlement.

 

"...But we don't want to give you that, do we ? !!!" :grin:

 

Bill.

[bill-k]

Excellent Redsue - I've just bunged another tirade on the other Contractual thread if you wanna take look first, and get in on a group hug !!

[bill-k]

When we got back home from work we officially recieved out 'f*** Off' letters from NW - not bovvered - c'ya NW.

Think I may visit our local branch in the morning and speak in VERY LOUDLY ABOUT CLAIMING BACK MY UNLAWFUL BANK CHARGES WITH COMPOUNDED INTEREST!!

 

I'd love to see the CCTV footage of that, Redsue. :o

 

So, they shut down the accounts of anybody who believes that unlawful misappropriation is not vey nice. So, what is all this s**t about new money-laundering regulations, then ?? Talk about hypocrisy.

 

Bovvered ? Lookamyface - you callin' me a Pikey ?

 

Get me that footage - it'd be priceless !!!

[bill-k]

We're...taking our business elsewhere - I wouldn't give them the satisfaction.

 

I believe this kind of closure has been found to be a breach of the Banking Code, (did I spell that right ?) and some forum members have even taken out injunctions - there are threads on this, I'm sure.

 

I personally would have the greatest pleasure in forcing them to keep the accounts open, first of all, by telling them that this kind of victimisation is a breach of the Banking Code. Then when they've been forced to back down, send them a bunch of fork-off letters explaining politely (? ?) that you do not feel that you can leave your money with an organisation that not only appears to condone unlawful misappropriation, but also actively discourages those who do respect the law (by closing them down) - Oh...and invite their comments !!

 

Yeah - take their toys away first, and save them the trouble of chucking them out of the pram themselves. - Then take their pram away.

 

Aren't we rotten ?

[bill-k]

Willow - I see you got caught clicking Glenn's scales once too often !! Made me laugh, your comment about getting a reputation !! :grin:

 

Tables are turning, now, aren't they ? Cryin' all the way to the bank, and laughing all the way home these days, aren't we ? - You just gotta !!

 

Redsue, FWIW, my little NatWest win was for contractual unauthorised rate, but I've just had a £600 full payout for another claim at unauthorised rate. Still smaller than yours, but they eventually paid in full without arguing.

 

As I believe Dolly said earlier, there are some big ones about, though.

 

I expect Willow's clicked a few of 'em, eh ? ;-)

 

Hold your nerve, gal.

 

Bill.

[bill-k]

:o bloody cheek! lol besides it's not the size of the claim that matters it's the way that you action them!

 

hummmm

 

Wxx

 

FOMTL - Fell outta my tree laughing - Well put, Willow - true in every sense !! ;-)

 

...it's only when push comes to shove that we find out whether or not the claim has anything to do with reality !! :grin:

 

Look out - I think there's a Mod coming. Better be'ave ourselves !!