PCN Envelope attached to Car but not PCN inside

[garyb17]

Hey everyone, Title says it all really. Have been writing several times now to the council and now they are basically saying the PCN was issued correctly, its not their fault if it was removed once the warden left and im now not even being offered the discount to pay they want the full £130.00 . Envleope attached but there was no PCN insude. Anyone have a template I could use (although I have sent several letters now) or know the law regarding this? Any help really appreciated Thanks in advance G

[Michael Browne]

they are basically saying the pcn was issued correctly, its not their fault if it was removed once the warden left

Naturally this is going to be the council's stance, otherwise we'd all be using this as an excuse. It's likely that tey have photos of the PCN affixed to your car, which will prove the PCN was served.

 

At what point did you contact the council? when you found the empty bag or did you wait until they sent the Notice to Owner?

[garyb17]

Hey, They do have pictures. I called the council once I saw the envelope, got the PCN number over the phone to appeal it. Havent recieved a Notice to owner yet. G

[Michael Browne]

im now not even being offered the discount to pay they want the full £130.00 ........... (although I have sent several letters now)

Normally when you make an informal appeal, the council will suspend the discount period until they reject your appeal and will then extend the discount by a further 14 days. If you have let that lapse, then you can make a formal appeal when you receive the NTO assuming you have grounds for contesting the contravention.

[garyb17]

Ok, so even If i make the same appeal again when I recieve the Notice to owner I will then get it discounted? (if they reject the appeal)

[Michael Browne]

Ok, so even If i make the same appeal again when I recieve the Notice to owner I will then get it discounted? (if they reject the appeal)

No, that time is passed, you now owe the full amount. Only if a formal appeal to the NTO is successful (or if you took it to adjudication and succeeded there) would you owe nothing. If the NTO appeal is unsuccessful you will still owe £130

[garyb17]

Ok thanks, going to appeal when I get the notice to owner. Got nothing to lose.

[garyb17]

Any advice as to what I can put in the appeal?

[Michael Browne]

Forget the empty bag etc, that's not grounds for appeal, especially as you followed that up, appealed which was rejected and you failed to pay the discounted amount.

 

Equally you haven't mentioned anything about the contravention itself, so I'm assuming that you accept it took place .

 

Which basically only leaves faults in the ticket itself.

 

Try posting on Pepipoo, they are the experts. You will need to post both sides of the PCN

[garyb17]

Thanks for your help. As i said I havent got a PCN as it wasn't attached to my car. Il wait to recieve the NTO. G

[lamma]

go for the the CEOs notes. the empty bag has been known to be used as part of a trick used by unscrupulous CEOs. how close to the time on the alleged PCN did you return to the car ?

[garyb17]

Basically, I have a zone 'N' resident permit but was parked in a zone N business bay - Thames water were doing work so the bays around my area were quite limited, but I thought I was ok to park there as I saw the N (didnt notice the Business bay part . ) So the car had been there a few hours.

[lamma]

how close to the time on the alleged pcn did you return to the car ?

[starfarer]

go for the the CEOs notes. the empty bag has been known to be used as part of a trick used by unscrupulous CEOs. how close to the time on the alleged PCN did you return to the car ?

 

+1.

 

We recently had a very friendly discussion here covering briefly the issue of CEO's allowed to take pictures before "serving" a PCN. Now this is one way it can be mis-used effectively. As you've already made an enquiry on PCN, keep the record of time/date and conversation involved and if possible print out itemised bill showing the number called as a proof of enquiry made.

 

Forget the empty bag etc, that's not grounds for appeal, especially as you followed that up, appealed which was rejected and you failed to pay the discounted amount. Equally you haven't mentioned anything about the contravention itself, so I'm assuming that you accept it took place .

 

Which basically only leaves faults in the ticket itself.

 

Try posting on Pepipoo, they are the experts. You will need to post both sides of the pcn

 

why?? empty bag is just that..an empty bag. There was no PCN, so PCN was not served and this will be the ground for appeal. Few things:

a) what kind of envelope was used? yellow or white? transparent front? If white and transparent front, zooming on photos will reveal part of PCN inside the bag.

b) was the adhesive used to attached on windscreen or just placed underneath the wiper? (I've one outstanding PCN at patas on the ground that PCN was "placed" underneath the wiper and putting it on risk of being blown away or being tampered by someone else. My reasoning was that the CEO decided without any explanation eg heavy rain so slippery windscreen etc to "Put" rather than to follow the guideline of using the adhesive part of envelope. I know this is a very weak point but as you, i'd nothing to lose as PCN was already at NTO stage and who knows thing.)

c) Check the times on photos and time of PCN serve and post here. Just to make sure that Photos were taken AFTER PCN served and not before.

d) Demand to see any procedure/guideline where a time/setting of digital camera is only accessible by supervisor or at least not by CEO. This is to point out that the lack of any such procedures or passwort (not set) on setting functions, the time can be easily altered on digi cam by CEO's. Also demand to see that the calibration of times on digital camera are routinely done and maintained on log book.

e)Under FOI, ask any such previous incidents in last 2 years where a driver complained or appealed of empty envelope bag attached to car.

 

I don't know how PATAS determine the cases but we can at least put a doubt on the procedure.

 

Edit: which council?

[garyb17]

Hey, thanks for your help. The pictures were taken over the PCN was served (or not served in my case) - Its Islington Council, its the green plastic envelope but transparent, I cant zoom in, but whether it was there or not it wasnt when i returned to the vehicile. Ive drafted this letter to the council for when i recieve my NTO: I am writing to formally appeal the above PCN. Firstly, I am aware now that I had parked in a business bay N, at the time I thought I was parked in a resident bay N, but since the incident I now understand that I was parked illegally, there are several mitigating reasons which I hope you will take on board when considering this appeal; On the day of the parking contravention Thames water were carrying out maintenance on water mains which resulted in several bays close to my house, which I usually parked in without any problems, being suspended. This may seem irrelevant, but on the morning when the above PCN was issued the parking spaces near my house were limited, I therefore chose an unfamiliar place to park which was in the same letter as my parking permit but I wasn’t aware that it was a business bay. I am aware this was my fault, however, if the work wasn’t taking place I would not have had to use an unfamiliar parking bay and there would not have been suspended bays on that morning. May I suggest that, in future, more bays are provided when there is works which result in bays being suspended. This wont effect me as I no longer own a car but it would be useful for fellow vehicle owners. Also when I arrived at my car, I saw the envelope on the windscreen of my vehicle but when investigating the envelope there was no PCN attached inside. I am also aware that this is not your fault but its also not my fault either. I was yet to receive or see sight of a PCN until the notice to owner was sent to me on ****. Therefore, I went *** days without seeing sight of the PCN, which is supposed to be served to me in person or placed on the car. Since contacting the council to obtain the PCN number of the PCN, which wasn’t attached to my car, I have written several informal appeals to Islington Council which have been rejected. I was disappointed to see that the opportunity to even make a discounted payment of £65.00 was withdrawn on the 22 July 2011. I am aware I was told this in a letter dated 4 July 2011. But since then I wrote a letter on the 6 July 2011 which further appealed my PCN and requested certain information relating to my PCN, therefore I was waiting for a response to my letter before taking further action or paying the PCN. I wrote my letter on the 6 July 2011, which was also faxed to you on the same day. Islington Council replied to this letter 20 days later on the 26 July 2011. Therefore, I do think it is unfair to remove the opportunity to pay the discounted price, especially when the secretary of state’s guidance to local authorities on the civil enforcement of parking contraventions ‘suggests that authorities should respond within 14 days’ to any representations. Taken into account the above and given the fact ‘An authority has the discretionary power to cancel a PCN at any point throughout the CPE process’ I request that my PCN is cancelled. Please find attached several documents to support my appeal. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours sincerely

[starfarer]

Don't accept,confirm or admit that contravention ever happened. The correct word is "alleged"; alleged contravention or alleged to happen. Start with

The NTO xxxxx relating to PCN xxxxxx alleged a parking contravention on dd/mm/yy at hh:mm. To my knowledge, PCN was not served as stated in TMA 2004 Part 6 section 78(2). On my arrival to vehicle, an envelope used to serve PCN was attached (put under wiper) to windscreen. The envelope was not sealed and when opened, I didn't find any PCN or any notice inside the envelope.

 

Now this is important: was the envelope placed underneath wiper or attached to windscreen? Was it sealed? continue...

Initially my logic was that third party did interfered with PCN but after analysing the photos supplied and alleged to have been taken by CEO after the service of PCN , I can confirm that the envelope is in the same position as in the supplied photos when I returned to the vehicle. Due to it, I couldn't ascertain the fact that third party had interfered with PCN which put a doubt on the process and actual service of PCN. I would also like to add that the photos supplied do not clearly show a PCN within envelope. The envelope used is transparent on front and the digital file format used to capture images can be zoomed in 100% to possibly view the content. Please note that the images supplied were of poor nature, taken from a distance and zooming in do not clearly reveal a presence of PCN or any other contents of envelope.

 

So your're defo sure that the envelope is transparent? is there any times printed on image? what's the time on PCN? Time is very important. A time on photos/images earlier than printed on PCN will throw a huge doubt on CEO's procedure or will put more credit on your version of event.

On images supplied, I've noticed imprinted times which were of earlier period than printed on PCN when issued for alleged contravention. This clarify the fact that CEO decided to record images before actual service of PCN and high probability that reasons unknown CEO decided not to place PCN on envelope.....

 

Don't rush...as plenty time left. Can you post a pic of envelope and another with some paper inside taken from distance 2m with resolution of 3MP?

[garyb17]

Hey, Thanks alot for your help with this. Im amending the letter now. Il upload a picture of the envelope later on today. Thanks again

[garyb17]

Ive accessed the photos online, on the Islington Council website, as you say the images are taken from a distance, I have zoomed in to see the envelope is transparent and there is no clear sign of a PCN, so I will definatley mention that.

[starfarer]

Don't worry about zooming on photos yourself as long envelope is transparent in front. Council will have better sets of photos to zoom on their computer and it's their problem to prove that PCN is actually inside the envelope as opposed to what you be claiming. Few questions still:

a) any times/date on photos? what's the issue time of PCN? any difference between them?

b) was the envelope "attached" or "placed" under wiper? was it sealed?

c) was there someone with you( when opening the envelope)? A witness statement verifying the claim attached with the form will help you lot.

 

yes, a pic of "envelope" will help to see how clearly a content can be seen.

[yoman228]

I am a bit lost; I wonder what could be the reason should an CEO issued thePCN without one inside.

[garyb17]

The times do tally up as the PCN is before the photos were taken. The PCN was placed under the wiper and wasnt sealed. The envelopes just have a slit at the top. & i was on my own at the time, so no witnesses

[cream70]

I am a bit lost; I wonder what could be the reason should an CEO issued thePCN without one inside.

 

May have interrupted a well known and nasty ticket [problem] known to have been used by desperate CEOs to get around observation time issues and so issue more tickets.

 

"Every photo is date stamped via the camera so if a PA come across any vehicle offending

they could set the camera 10 minutes or so fast - log the details in of the

vehicle, slap an empty ticket bag on the car and take photo's to look like

it's been ticketed, remove the bag and note the tax details etc before

walking away. The driver returns and assumes he's okay coz he was only gone a

few minutes and there's no ticket. About 10 minutes later somewhere out of sight, the PA prints out the ticket

and bins it !!! Because the camera time

is 10 mins fast it coincides with the PDA time and ticket - if the driver

appeals, the photos are there which show the ticket on the car."

 

 

It's a [problem] that is a almost impossiable to disprove. You will

need to request a a copy of the original PCN, pocket books notes (paper and electronic), on street logs,

original photos and as advised above, their protocol, regarding issung PCN's and camera evidence.

 

Islington will almost certaintly reject your appeal as you are making an accusation of what is

tantamount to fraud.

 

At Patas stage make it a personal hearing and request the attendence of the warden.

There will probably be a some discrepances which you can exploit.

 

Someone had some sucsess regarding this very issue although the appeal points were

more wide ranging.

 

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/StatReg/case.aspx?caseref=2100416126

[starfarer]

The times do tally up as the PCN is before the photos were taken. The PCN was placed under the wiper and wasnt sealed. The envelopes just have a slit at the top. & i was on my own at the time, so no witnesses

 

still waiting to see any pics of envelope (both sides). About times tallying, then we need to focus on whether password protected on setting of camera and only can be accessed by supervisor or higher ranked personnels. It's just to point out doubt on times (on photos) as evidence as would be presented by council. Nobody knows whether it'll sell well at PATAS but worth putting it forward. BTW when was NTO received?

 

Is the envelope that you've is what was on the car??

 

EDIT: Do anyone knows a link on guidance to how a PCN should be "affixed"?

 

Edit2: Operational Guidance to Local Authorities -Parking Policy and Enfocement under Service of PCN at the time of contravention:

8.38 The vehicle owner’s copy of the PCN should be fixed to the windscreen, so it must be weatherproof or able to fit a weatherproof envelope. It should be fixed in such a way that it cannot easily be removed by wind or passers-by

Edited August 3, 2011 by starfarer

[garyb17]

Thanks, Not quite sure how to upload pictures to here? I still haven't recieved my NTO. The PCN was issued in May but the council did state making informal appeals would delay the NTO being sent, so Ive given up writing and will wait to make an official appeal when i recieve this. Ive amended my appeal letter alot and have mentioned 8.38 The vehicle owner’s copy of the PCN should be fixed to the windscreen, so it must be weatherproof or able to fit a weatherproof envelope. It should be fixed in such a way that it cannot easily be removed by wind or passers-by.

[starfarer]

Just remember above guidance 8.38 referenced will be to raise the question why CEO decided not to use "adhesive" part. Did CEO write the specific reason on his pocketbook? Council will claim that it's an optional & CEO's choice, but do they have written operational guidance to prove it? By placing envelope under wiper, it was not safely and securely "affixed" to vehicle as required. There is still a chance that PCN was removed by someone and council may have photo showing PCN inside. Make a clear distinction that referenced 8.38 is not to dispute the legality of service of PCN. Rather CEO's choice of method to put envelope was not secured, easy for third party to tamper & resulted in loss of discounted period plus price. It's normal procedure not followed.

 

Also do mention the reason why you decided not to pay when provided with PCN number. Refer the case number provided by cream70 to point out that during your research, yours is not an isolated case.