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    • Post in Suing a parcel delivery company when you don't have a direct contract with them – third-party rights Copy of judgment available

      BankFodder posted a post in a topic,

      We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Parcel delivery insurance is prohibited under section 57 – Consumer Rights Act – Read about It Here and in The Times.

HFO Claimform - old M&S Store card **DISCONTINUED**

MAGDA

By MAGDA
in M&S Cards

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MAGDA

MAGDA

Posted
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Hi, I am checking some M&S agreements for an elderly relative - one is a charge card, the second a personal loan and the third a personal reserve.

 

All of the agreements are application forms - the only one that contains the prescribed terms is the personal loan from 2000. It has the APR on it, but not the actual rate of interest, which I've been told is the prescribed term, not the APR.

 

For the other two, although the t&c's are attached and apparently form part of the same document, these are illegible for the main part, really not good copies at all. I have also noticed that again, the one for the personal reserve (from 1998) states the APR, but not the rate of interest.

 

Not sure about the chargecard one, that is from 1994, do these tend to be enforceable from this period does anyone know?

 

I will try to scan them in when I have a spare minute, but the t&cs are going to be difficult for anyone to read anyway and the printed text on the applications is not that clear either.

 

many thanks for any help on this.

 

Magda

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  • 4 weeks later...
MAGDA

MAGDA

Posted
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Posted

These are the agreements, be grateful for any opinions, the accompanying t&cs (will post up when I have a sec) seem to be the originals, but whether they are part of the same document, I don't know.

 

Many thanks, Magda

 

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8407/ms3f.jpg

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/4063/ms2g.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2205/ms1x.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...
seriously fed up

seriously fed up

Posted
Posted

the loan is probably ok imo. There MIGHT be, as you observe, an issue about the rate of interest. The 1983 regs say there should be "A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement." for fixed sum and running credit agreements. So you might argue that - its being argued re cash advances in Egg agreements for instance, but that is partly supported by their being a rate of interest and APR for purchases, but only APR for cash. Not impossible, but might be difficult imo.

The Personal Reserve is too indistinct to say. Certainly what you put up isnt enforceable as there is just nothing there but the usual bureaucratic stuff - name/ address/ occupation etc. I dont see a single prescribed term. However, the second page that is there has a statement about "this is an agreement under the consumer credit act 1974" - so they might be there, further down? Then, though there could be an argument as to whether the two pages are part of the same document. So depends on what you have got and whether they look part of the same document

The chargecard application is just a pile of nonsense. First of all its an application form - so arguably its void under s59. Secondly there is no sign of a prescribed term - though they might come back with something, alleging that they were on the other side of this form (so why not fess up to this now rather than much later?). But that takes us through s65 to s127(3) Also, did your relative ever get a properly executed agreement - ie signed by her and someone from M&S. If not then its arguably unenforceable under s127 (4). Best of all, though, did they ever transfer her to &more from the chargecard, because they cant just do that without a signed agreement from your relative - I would bet that they dont have this.

Pity about the loan, but the card looks very difficult for them.

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MAGDA

MAGDA

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Hi Seriously fed up, I did think the loan would be enforceable and advised the person concerned to carry on paying that one, although at a reduced amount as she has been paying more than she can really afford. Re: the other two, there were t&c's with them, but as you say the cards seem to be a bit less clear cut and they might have a difficult time enforcing those. I will post up the t&c's so that the whole 'agreement' is there for scrutiny and would appreciate your comments on them.

 

One thing though, the t&c's are not very clear, and even with the actual documents in front of me, are hard to read, so legibility might be an issue, something else perhaps to use against m&s.

 

Many thanks for your help, Magda

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seriously fed up

seriously fed up

Posted
Posted

yes if illegible then tooo bad for them eh? Hard to say online - is it your scanner or their's that's the problem (or just my eyes :rolleyes:)

Did they move your relative to &more though? If the Chargecard was opened before 2003, then they might well have tried to do this. And if they did then they are in very big problems - have a look here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dealing-debt-scotland/199747-help-court-papers-m.html - its Scotland but the considerations would be just the same.

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  • 1 year later...
MAGDA

MAGDA

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Hi,

 

 

I have been getting quite a few letter recently from HFO regarding an old M&S Account - a store card.

 

 

The card was taken out in the mid to late 1990's, so quite a while ago.

The account has apparently been assigned to HFO by M&S.

 

I requested a copy of the credit agreement and later received a copy of an application form. Nothing else.

 

 

I wrote back and said that this did not comply with section 78 (no terms and conditions etc)

and if they were unable to respond in a satisfactory manner, to inform me in writing.

 

 

No reply whatsoever, but continued to receive their threats.

 

 

I have now received a letter from Turnbull Rutherford giving me 21 days to respond or a court claim will be issued.

That doesn't bother me, it's the usual rubbish these companies come out with and if they do issue a claim, I'll defend it.

 

 

The thing is they have attached a DN and also a notice of assignment headed "M&S Money."

 

 

The NOA states:

"We have assigned your account to HFO capital ltd a company incorporated under the law of Ireland with a registered office at

............ Dublin 2, Ireland. Would this assignment be valid under UK law?

The account was apparently assigned in 2008, but they are only now starting to pursue it.

 

I'm going to do a SAR to M&S because I haven't made any payments to HFO and for all I know, it may be statute barred.

 

Many thanks,

 

Magda

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MAGDA

MAGDA

Posted
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Would also still be very grateful if someone could advise on whether an assignment made between a uk company and one registered under irish law (as with HFO) would be legally valid?

 

thanks, Magda

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MAGDA

MAGDA

Posted
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Something I've noticed on my credit file (no mention of M&S at all) is that HFO have been carrying out some kind of credit search every month for the last three months, not sure why they are repeating them so frequently, seems a bit odd....

 

Magda

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  • 2 months later...
MAGDA

MAGDA

Posted
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Hi, wonder if any of the "HFO FAN CLUB" can help. As explained above, I had an old m&s store card, for which I have now received a court claim (from HFO Ireland). I checked with M&S and they say it was assigned to Roxburgh end of July 2008. I mentioned that HFO say it was assigned to them, but M&s just said they are all part of the same company. Any advice re: assignments and HFO and how valid these tend to be much appreciated. Can use all the help I can get at the moment. Have sent a SAR to M&S by the way.

 

Many thanks, Magda

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coledog

coledog

Posted
Posted

Here - missed this one sorry. Thanks for the link, I am going to ask the mods to move it to 'Legal Forum' for you.

 

Can you let me have all the details of the Claim Form - date, Particulars everything. If you can scan it with all personal details removed (and references) that would be great.

Please support CAG and they will support you.

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comedycircus

comedycircus

Posted
Posted
Hi, wonder if any of the "HFO FAN CLUB" can help. As explained above, I had an old m&s store card, for which I have now received a court claim (from HFO Ireland). I checked with M&S and they say it was assigned to Roxburgh end of July 2008. I mentioned that HFO say it was assigned to them, but M&s just said they are all part of the same company. Any advice re: assignments and HFO and how valid these tend to be much appreciated. Can use all the help I can get at the moment. Have sent a SAR to M&S by the way.

 

Many thanks, Magda

 

Have you received a Notice of Asignment from HFO Services Limited or Turnbull Rutherford Limited on behalf of HFO Capital Limited (Ireland) If so, what was the exact date on the NOA. this is important.

There appears to be light at the end of the tunnel with HFO

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coledog

coledog

Posted
Posted

I think that we need to see all the documents. I suspect that they are identical to ones received by other posters recently.

 

Are they claiming the full amount or is it a 'part claim'?

Please support CAG and they will support you.

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comedycircus

comedycircus

Posted
Posted
Hi, wonder if any of the "HFO FAN CLUB" can help. As explained above, I had an old m&s store card, for which I have now received a court claim (from HFO Ireland). I checked with M&S and they say it was assigned to Roxburgh end of July 2008. I mentioned that HFO say it was assigned to them, but M&s just said they are all part of the same company. Any advice re: assignments and HFO and how valid these tend to be much appreciated. Can use all the help I can get at the moment. Have sent a SAR to M&S by the way.

 

Many thanks, Magda

 

 

At this time you state, it does not appear that they were registered with the ICO to process data. This was not until 7th August 2008 under registration number Z1425164

There appears to be light at the end of the tunnel with HFO

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