###Employment : Can you resign before disciplinary meeting?

[RachelMD]

Think my befuddled brain has just got it!

 

Going through the whole handbook. Interesting bit in Disciplinary Procedures where it says that

 

"other than for an "off the record" informal reprimand, you have the right to be accompanied by a fellow employee, who may act as a witness or speak on your behalf, at all stages of the formal disciplinary process".

Not what it says in their letter!

Unusual. Normally, an Accomp/Rep can address the hearing and confer with you, but can't 'speak on your behalf'. If they ask a question, you must answer it yourself.

Also:

"you will only be disciplined after careful consideration of the facts & the opportunity to present your side of the case".

Well they certainly gave "careful consideration of the facts" as the letter was sent the next day.

That might well mean after the hearing they carefully consider the facts before imposing any disciplinary sanction.

 

"You should report all accidents, no matter how minor, in the accident book in your office". (No time specified, and it was!)

 

Interesting book this handbook. Like watching paint dry. More to come tomorrow.

fkbvdiblbfvd\k

[Jake143]

Thank you.

[RachelMD]

Oops. Should explain. I'm the poster formally known as 'Elpulpo'.

Going to explain the change in an announcement tomorrow:-)

[Jake143]

Oops. Should explain. I'm the poster formally known as 'Elpulpo'.

Going to explain the change in an announcement tomorrow:-)

Probably the shock of finding a Tesco's open on a Bank Holiday Sunday! or baking bread! Don't care what you're called, thank you anyway.

[Atlas01]

1) failure to report the accident

 

It was reported, at the time of the actually incident, your OH didn't know it was an accident at the time and as such went about his business (if every employee was obliged to report every minor fall, stubbed toe, banged elbow....... you get the drift) , when it became clear that the fall had caused issues he reported it at the first reasonable opportunity after seeking medical advice.

 

You will not see a timeframe because an employer can not arbitrarily set one, accidents should be reported at the "first reasonable opportunity"

 

2) confidentiality, if i have this right the only issues is the use of peoples first names? If this is so the allegation = rhubarb

 

3&4) Failure to inform, this from what you have written is what i see as their strongest allegation on paper, they can say by not informing them your husband failed in his duty of care to the service user and the company, he has told them and without knowing the level of responsibility to this client the company has (e.g. they need to be seen by 10am each day for medication and such becuase they have complex needs) it's hard to give you a full steer on it. Looking from the sidelines would it not in hindsight been good to ring the firm earlier?

 

I'm not saying this as a criticism but because it's probably going to be thrown at your OH in the hearing, my response would be that i did again at the first and earliest opportunity and due to A&E guidelines no mobiles are allowed to be used. (my local A&E still has the no phones signs up as i was in there the other day and i doubt my boss wanted a call at 4am, they therefore got one at 10am which was the first reasonable time to report for me)

 

In addition if i was your rep i'd be asking the employer what systems and procedures are in place by them to ascertain if service users are covered by their staff, if they do not have systems in place for making sure clients are covered they would be in more hot water than your OH if this turned into an unfair dismissal claim and they were playing the "failure to follow procedure card", it is not your responsibility to make sure the service users care plan is covered, it's the employers as they are bound to build in systems for times where workers due to unforeseen circumstances do not attend, A&E = unforeseen

 

If this service user would have been missed apart from the fact your OH reported it after A&E i'd not be touching that one with a bargepole if i was them.

 

As far as the rep goes they are obviously either not well trained by the union or the type that wants to advise on what should be correct instead of what is correct (saying what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear)

 

I'd contact the branch and ask for a higher level of rep citing the fact the advice given is dangerously wrong and therefore you wish for a more senior officer, you will need the union involved as nothing anybody says here will mean a jot if the employer decides to dismiss, the employer can dismiss him for eating the wrong flavour of monster munch, it would be automatically unfair but they can still be stupid enough to do it

 

Then the union solicitors would be there so don't alienate the union

 

Good luck, if you knew some of the appalling acts i've know "care" employers to do (missing high risk service users for days etc) you'd know why most of us as much more chilled than you or your OH, what none of us here can build into our advice is the level of competence of the employer in conducting a fair and impartial hearing.

 

At best they are covering their backs for the CQC at worst they are completely overblowing the incident

 

don't forget, we only have 1 side of the story here, i've had many a case/read many a thread here where the person has "forgotten" what they consider to be a minor detail which in reality isn't very minor when it's tossed across the table for an answer at a DH!!!

 

Nec déditió nec regressió

Edited April 25, 2011 by Atlas01
appalleeng speeling

[Jake143]

Thanks for your advice.

 

Failure to report the accident - that's what I thought. Only reported it due to having been to A & E and being unable to work due to this. If it had just been a bruise then wouldn't have reported it.

 

Confidentiality - the only thing we can think of is that I asked "was **** running" and that was ONLY after member of staff had repeatedly said clients name when asking questions. Wracking our brains to think of anything else it could be, but can't think of anything.

 

Failure to inform- I can understand what you have written about this. The client in question according toOH doesn't have medication or complex needs, just a bit of support and, of course, the shopping (which was checked on by OH before attending GP and A & E). Yes, it would have been better to have rung the firm earlier but it was his intention to go there after GP and then when sent to A & E after that. Client doesn't go out by themselves so would have been there no matter what time. There have been times in the past when OH has been unable to go in and has rung the company first thing but usually client in these instances client doesn't get anybody on the same day!

 

Generally from what OH has said to me, I think it's a bit hit and miss whether or not clients are covered. If they have lots of notice i.e. holidays then generally I think they are, but if its sickness then for first day or so if they're lucky they are, otherwise could have to wait a day or so.

 

Going back to the confidentiality matter again. Client rang OH on his mobile the other night to find out how he was (2 days after accident).Client stated that they had been covered for these 2 days with different people (but not the original day) and when Client went out shopping with one of the covers, they had seen the cover's father in a cafe and had gone in and had coffee with him. Cover was somebody client had never met before, nor had they met father! OH said client was not perturbed by this in the slightest, but I think employer might be!

 

I do know one of OH's clients. This is because I work for large organisation which has "Fun Day" in summer. Clients father asked if I could get tickets to this for Client a couple of years ago which I duly did and a good day was had by all, followed by tea with client's father. Client apparently likes me so if there are any events on (at my workplace or otherwise) I try to get tickets etc. for OH, Client and very occasionally (but not usually) me. Father believes that it is good for client to socialise with different people in different situations i.e. me and events. Don't think that employers know about this as Father definitely wouldn't tell them (he wants OH to go self employed so he can employ him directly). I'm quite sure that this isn't the confidentiality thing employers are talking about, if so, why not bring it up previously? Also if it was, from what father has implied to OH, then he would drop employers immediately.

 

Another thing about the confidentiality/vulnerable people etc. My parent was in a CH for a while, and I continued to visit other residents there after parent died. I was going to become an official volunteer there but this would have caused complications at my work re further CRB checks (I'm already enhanced but home would have had to get another & involve my employers etc.) so I was told that I could continue to visit and indeed take residents out if I wished, but as a "friend" rather than volunteer. These were vulnerable adults in an EMI home and owners were quite happy for me to do this.

 

I also appreciate what you are saying re 1 side of the story. Over the past couple of days I've grilled OH re "Are you sure they haven't said/mentioned/told you not to...." etc. etc. and he's adamant that he has never been pulled up over anything before verbally or otherwise. He hates going into the office, so I sure if he had had to go to be verbally told off or whatever then he would have told me.(however I'll keep grilling since I do get your point!). Since his direct LM left a couple of months ago, he assumes that office/owner is his LM but hasn't been officially told. But as I said, he avoids any contact with them unless absolutely necessary - and then he usually sends an e-mail! He wasn't even told that his LM had left - was told by one of his clients and sent a letter from office with change of emergency numbers in it!

 

I've checked the CQC report and as the current owner bought out the old company last year, no reports have been completed yet. I do know from what OH has told me that they don't have a very good rep with SW's due to lack of continuity.

 

Only other thing OH has just reminded me of is that he has now told office that he doesn't have a mobile phone. This is because they were forever ringing him to do sick cover which meant leaving his regular clients (he doesn't have enough spare hours during day to do sick cover as well as regular clients) and covering for somebody else. He thinks that this is very unprofessional and unethical - taking him from regular clients to cover for (possibly) better paying ones and/or residential homes. They have also asked him to leave regular clients early in order to do sick cover. If he had spare time then he would do sick cover but he works 5 days and 5 evenings and has 2 afternoons a week where he has a couple of hours off between his day and evening clients.

 

Re the TU Rep. The problem is that the original meeting is supposed to be this Wednesday, so I'm going to have to get a letter to them via email today and through their post box tomorrow. If it wasn't this week, then I would contact TU tomorrow & get change of rep, all I can think of doing is of telling rep what OH wants to say etc.rather than asking him. I'm currently collating all the info and advice I've received from my original query on this site for this purpose. I'll just tell TU Rep that I've been researching on i/net and this is the info I've found!

 

Thanks again for your advice. Back to the grilling.

 

Nec deditio nec regressio. I agree totally!

[RachelMD]

If the confidentiality accusation they've stated in the disciplinary letter is ambiguous. then request clarification as to what exactly is being alleged.

You're entitled to know in full what the accusation(s) are prior to the hearing.

[Jake143]

' Disclosure of client identity data to a third party'.

That is what I am assuming to be 'confidentiality'. Doesn't say anything else. At all. I could be totally barking up the wrong tree.

 

Out of the other 3 points which are to be "discussed", the only one which gives any indication of what it's actually about is the breach of H & S about reporting the accident 3 days after it happened "which is in breach of our reporting procedure as stated in your staff handbook". (Er, where???). The other points we are assuming are all to do with the day he ended up in A & E and didn't go to work at the usual time. No actual indications as to when/what they relate to.

 

Can't get through to TU Rep on phone.

[RachelMD]

Don't rely on the TU. If they do their stuff, then great. But sadly they tend to be inconsistant. Prepare yourself.

As I said, if there's ambiguity as to what exactly the accusations are, then write requesting further clarification/stay on the DH.

If they refuse and you have to attend, when they bring up specific accusations just say they have failed to give prior intimation as to the specifics prior to the meeting and therefore you're unable to respond.

[Jake143]

Thank you Rachel MD.

 

Managed to get hold of TU Rep. and get a couple of available dates from him. Just about to do letter to company asking for meeting to be held on one of two alternative dates due to TU Reps availability. TU Rep queried why OH wasn't doing what was advised, i.e. resigning before disciplinary & told him that I'd been googling etc.& didn't believe that he would in fact get a reference NOT mentioning "pending disciplinary". Don't think he was impressed by me saying this. A friend has told me about a TU Rep who represented someone they knew who was very good so might try and see if I can get hold of them tomorrow. Same Union and same branch, just hope that they can make the dates that I'm going to suggest to company tonight. If not, then OH will be on his own - for the first meeting at least. I feel very sick.

[Cardiff Devil]

I would wait until your other half gets a confirmed date from the union rep before agreeing to meet the employers. They should provide a reasonable amount of time to allow for arranging representation. I would seriously advise against going in there alone.

[Jake143]

Well, I sent the email last night to both of the office staff with the letter as an attachment and marked P & C. I also hand delivered a hard copy early this afternoon (obtaining a receipt to prove delivery). NOTHING back from the company. I requested a postponement so that TU Rep could attend and gave two other alternative dates. As I said, nothing back whatsoever. I hope they're not expecting him to turn up tomorrow, or to have the hearing in his absence. Glad I got the receipt from the Receptionist when I dropped the letter off! Must admit I'm a bit worried though. Don't know what the next stage is. Tried to ring TU main office this afternoon but kept getting answerphone. Will try again tomorrow morning.

[Atlas01]

sometimes it's better to hunt through a unions website and see if you can find an officers email (not a group mailbox) and send them the mail, they tend to delegte it down pretty quickly on a phone that gets answered

[Jake143]

sometimes it's better to hunt through a unions website and see if you can find an officers email (not a group mailbox) and send them the mail, they tend to delegte it down pretty quickly on a phone that gets answered

Thank you. Very good idea. I'll have a quick look tonight and then start again early tomorrow morning. Otherwise I'll go to local Head Office, not just small local one and ask them if they have any suggestions re Rep. Only problem is that in the letter I sent last night I put forward the two dates the TU Rep can make, so just hope that if we do get a new one that they can make these dates.

 

OH has a feeling that he will get a phone call tomorrow asking why he didn't attend the meeting. Wouldn't be surprised if he did but he won't "be available" to speak to them. All bets taken!!