UK Power networks connection for effective earthing - why should consumer pay?

[bmu]

I am (contemplating) selling my house and as a preliminary measure had an electrical inspection carried out. The electrician said that the installation was largely of a good standard but he had to rate it overall as 'unsatisfactory' because the main earth was not satisfactory. He said it would be a very easy job for him to make it satisfactory - something to do with changing service heads, but was forbidden by law to do so.

 

The recommendation in his report was that the main earth should be upgraded to a PME system. He told me I must ring EDF or whatever they were now called. I contacted EDF/UK Power Networks, who told me I must give them two four-hour slots within the next - I think - 24 hours, so they could send someone to inspect. The person who came said he, like the electrician, got very high readings, way over the 0.8 required. I must ring the company in the morning and quote a reference number and talk to them. He also told me it would be much cheaper, and equally effective, for me to go for a 'TTF' solution, using an earth rod in the cellar, rather than a PME system.

 

When I rang UK Power Networks, they told me the same thing. The electrician said that he could guarantee that I would not get a better reading from doing this than from my current lead sheeting (I think). He could do it but it would be a waste of my money. After much to-ing and fro-ing, and much argument with UKPN about why I must pay for work they do outside my house, I asked UKPN for a quote. They have to put in a new cable. They are not, they insist, responsible for safe earthing. That is the responsibility of the consumer. [ The consumer who is not allowed to touch (or get an electrician to touch) anything their side of the meter.]

 

In other words it is their cable that needs to be replaced, but I must pay for it. The cabling was up to the job when they (or their predecessors) installed it and if it needs to be replaced now for purposes of earthing, not their problem. Mine. I was staggered eventually (I had to chase it) to receive a quotation for over £3,000. This seems utterly outrageous. Why should I have to pay to have a safely earthed connection? They are adamant - not their responsibility. They say many (when pressed, they said 'thousands') Londoners are now in the same position since other utilities' switching to plastic cabling has taken away the 'free' earthing available to consumers before.

 

How can it be right for consumers to pay for the company's cables? How can I fight this? I would go for their suggested 'TTF' solution but don't want to pay the electrician to do that and then have to pay for the PME solution on top of that cost. UKPN told me I can use other approved contractors, listed on Lloyds Register, but I see from Ofgem website that these contractors are likely only to do big jobs, not domestic work, so not much competition there. UKPN have me over a barrel, as they will increasing numbers of other consumers who will conveniently subsidise their cable maintenance and replacement programme. Scandalous, I think.

 

I am sorry I can't make this clearer. I don't understand any of the acronyms or much of the technical stuff myself. I did look at a website that talked about earthing solutions. TTF is apparently the solution normally suggested for isolated properties in the country. PME is something about the earthing being in the connection cable. The readings are in an electrical unit. Ohms I think, not sure. Lower the better and current standards require maximum of 0.8, whereas mine are around 20, though fluctuating.

Edited March 25, 2011 by bmu
request by dx100uk

[dx100uk]

please edit your post and add blank lines and sentence structure

 

so's we can understand it better?

 

dx

[tinkerbelledust]

Was it the emergency number that you called Uk Power Networks? If the ELI reading that Uk Power Networks took was over 0.8ohms then this means there is a problem on the incoming cable which is there responsibility to fix as this could be dangerous. Your responsibility starts as the consumer unit

[bmu]

Yes, that's what I'd have thought. But they are adamant that earthing is not their responsibility. They will put in a new cable that provides earthing, but only if I pay. It seems outrageous.

If you are right that it is their responsibility, then I guess I can have an argument with them, but they seem so complacently certain they are in the right it feels like it could be a losing battle.

Many thanks anyway for the advice. Would be helpful to know whether there is something I could look at that clarifies what the responsibilities are. Any ideas?

I think it was the emergency number I rang. Electrician told me to ring them after he got such high readings, and when I did they told me I must give two four-hour slots in the next 24 hours when they could call. And the guy gave me a reference number and a different number to ring the next morning, but I have somehow lost the bit of paper, which is infuriating for someone who never throws anything away! However, when I did ring them they put me through (after much argument about responsibilities) to the connections team and I have their number.

[watchinginvestigation2011]

Does sound odd as you pay a standing charge to use their meter which is linked to their wires incoming. Even bt look after external wires into box on house.

 

Can't be right or some company would have already started selling insurance policies for future possible external wiring repairs:wink:

 

They have not so I would get the company to confirm in writing what they say your as apposed to their responsibility is to get it assesed by the regulators and see what they say.

 

Record any calls to them for record.

[bmu]

Sadly, I think they are within their rights, as the advice I've had from Consumer Direct (not that I am hugely confident of their knowledge) is that it is the householder who is responsible for safe earthing. I also saw something on a water company website about responsibilities for earthing (based on fact that it used to be standard practice to earth through their pipes), which seems to be saying the same thing. It seems grossly unfair, but I don't think I have any redress, though I may try my MP. What makes me really angry is that I am subsidising UK Power Networks, who I'm sure are not in the habit of making a loss. Sooner or later they would have had to renew the cable anyway, and I'm just giving them a lovely way of making me foot the entire bill. Outrageous. But I am now exploring further the 'TTF' option, about which any advice would be welcome. And if anyone can point me to something that shows UKPN are out of order that of course would be very welcome too!

[tinkerbelledust]

I work for a power distribution company but not UK Power Networks. There are 2 different types of earthing, there is earthing on the incoming cable & a consumers earth. If we have a customer phoning in reporting a high ELI reading then we send an engineer out to measure the ELI. If the engineer reports back that the ELI reading is high then we sent a jointer out the same day to either strip back the cable, put the customer on a PME system. We do this as the incoming cable is our responsibility & it is something that we do not charge for. The customers responsibility starts from the consumer unit. This is quite dangerous to have an high ELI reading as it effective means there is no earth which could effective mean you could receive electric shocks from equipment within the property. Have you tried contacting your supplier to see if they can talk to Uk Power Networks. My other suggestion would be to contact OFGEM or speak to a manager at Uk Power Networks

Edited March 30, 2011 by tinkerbelledust

[bmu]

Well, thank you very much, that is interesting! (And alarming).

I will do as you suggest, and post again with any further information/progress. I am also sufficiently encouraged to think that perhaps I might just try to involve my MP.

They did send someone round and he did get a high reading. But he said my options were either the earthing rod in cellar solution, or to pay a small fortune for the PME.

Do you have any idea whether UKPN are unique in taking the line they do? And on what basis they can justify it. They do seem very very sure of their ground. But maybe it's all just a big bluff.

[willinthehill]

Just hit a similar problem with UK power networks.

 

After getting some electrical work done we were advised our property doesn't have a valid earth. We called UK power networks who confirmed the reading of 17 ohms was well above the required limit. They also advised that we don't have a 'sweated earth' (some kind of welded joint to the cable coming in from the street) which is the only type of connection that they would maintain. We already have a PME system installed but it's connected to the earth via a 'clip' and 10mm wire.

 

We don't want to waste money getting the sweated earth fitted if the problem was with the cable coming in from the street, so we asked the engineer if he could tell if the earth on the supply cable was good. He took some more tests and confirmed that the problem was 'definitely' with the cable coming in from the street and that changing the connection from a clip to a sweated earth would be a waste of time and money.

 

A few days later we got a call from UK Power networks advising us that they weren't responsible for fixing the problem as we didn't have a sweated earth. Didn't matter that their own engineer had confirmed this would be a waste of time & money. After several rounds of getting put through to a manager, they simply said that if you dont have a sweated earth (and most of London doesn't) then your two choices are to get one fitted (thousands) or just take responsibility for earthing the property yourself and put a spike in the ground (hundreds).

 

So practically speaking, they won't take any responsibility for the earth they supply to your property. Thinking about complaining to OFGEN but I'm guessing this was a stich-up to the consumer that was quietly agreed by the goverment to sweeten the deal when everything was privatised.

[citizenkain]

just chipping in on this,a few years ago I lived in a flat in slough,an earth problem happened outside the building,the earthing went or something,all the flats in the block effectively had no earth this caused televisions,computers and other electrical devices in the whole block to burn out,after the local electric company sorted it,they had to repair all the televisions etc which were damaged so they ARE liable is some respects,they just dont advertise that fact,perhaps you have been having problems with your electrical devices ?

[tinkerbelledust]

willinthehill if you are on a PME system this means that your earthing is connected to the incoming cable. A distribution company is responsible for making sure that the earthing is below 0.35 ohms on a PME system. If it is found to be over 0.35 ohms then the distrubtion company has 2 options: 1 to fit an RCD to protect you in the short term. 2 they need to dig up the road on an emergency to find out where the section of cable has gone faulty.

 

The problem that citizenkain is reporting is when a cable has lost the neutral. A neutral is on the incoming cable and prevents the electricity going over 253 volts, if you lose the neutral if it is damaged or stolen then this results in the voltage going skyhigh. The way that consumers describle it is as appliances go bang and smoke can come out of sockets.

 

A distribution company is responsible for there earth and neutral on there incoming cable. I would speak to the distribution companies complaint team as if you are on PME then this is only available from the incoming cable and is over the regulations.

[Bandit127]

Please confirm that you have had this sorted. 17 Ohms is dangerous.

 

Just hit a similar problem with UK power networks.

 

After getting some electrical work done we were advised our property doesn't have a valid earth. We called UK power networks who confirmed the reading of 17 ohms was well above the required limit. They also advised that we don't have a 'sweated earth' (some kind of welded joint to the cable coming in from the street) which is the only type of connection that they would maintain. We already have a PME system installed but it's connected to the earth via a 'clip' and 10mm wire.

 

We don't want to waste money getting the sweated earth fitted if the problem was with the cable coming in from the street, so we asked the engineer if he could tell if the earth on the supply cable was good. He took some more tests and confirmed that the problem was 'definitely' with the cable coming in from the street and that changing the connection from a clip to a sweated earth would be a waste of time and money.

 

A few days later we got a call from UK Power networks advising us that they weren't responsible for fixing the problem as we didn't have a sweated earth. Didn't matter that their own engineer had confirmed this would be a waste of time & money. After several rounds of getting put through to a manager, they simply said that if you dont have a sweated earth (and most of London doesn't) then your two choices are to get one fitted (thousands) or just take responsibility for earthing the property yourself and put a spike in the ground (hundreds).

 

So practically speaking, they won't take any responsibility for the earth they supply to your property. Thinking about complaining to OFGEN but I'm guessing this was a stich-up to the consumer that was quietly agreed by the goverment to sweeten the deal when everything was privatised.