Black Horse PPI and Charges *** WON ***

[Fred_Funk]

Can you elaborate on the £5.82 PPI overcharge referred to in your spreadsheet?!

[xboxer]

Can you elaborate on the £5.82 PPI overcharge referred to in your spreadsheet?!

 

Morning Fred, that is residual PPI from the previous Loan as it was consolidated as per example 8 of the FSA PPI Handbook.

[xboxer]

I'm actually working on a new one for multiple consolidations!

[Fred_Funk]

Morning Fred, that is residual PPI from the previous Loan as it was consolidated as per example 8 of the FSA PPI Handbook.

 

As I thought but thanks for the confirmation.

 

Having looked at Example 8 in the handbook, the only think I can't quite get my head around is why the 8 per cent simple interest on the 'residual monthly PPI payments' arising from Loan 1 should be calculated as if it equated to an additional PPI payment of £6.78 per month, with interest calculated accordingly, when the loan was refinanced.

 

Surely, when this occurred, the £319.16 PPI overpayment was taken by the bank in one fell swoop - rather than over the duration of the loan - and, that being the case, the 8 per cent simple interest should be calculated from the date of the refinancing rather than from the date of each of the monthly repayments… don't ya reckon?!

 

It may be that I'm missing something and, moreover, I appreciate it won't make all that great a difference in the scheme of things but, at the same time, I'm trying to get things straight in my head and, it seems to me, there's more logic in my approach than the one outlined by the FSA.

[xboxer]

I thought the same at first. I think the reason is as the Principal of loan 2 is based upon residual PPI from loan 1. If that was't there Loan 2 would be for less, BUT it does mean the residual PPI has contractual interest added THEN 8% statutory!

[ims21]

Hi there

 

Just to jump in if I may.

 

What happens at the point of refinancing is that the bank calculate the rebate due for ppi on loan 1 and, in the background, restructure the ppi part of the loan to only take account of the ppi used up to the date of refinance.

 

This means that there is a residual balance on that part of loan 1. In order to pay that balance off, they roll it into loan 2 and you pay it off over the life of the new loan.

 

But because this relates to ppi, you claim it back as normal, i.e. when the payments actually go out of the new loan.

 

Confusing innit?

 

ims

[xboxer]

Hi there

 

Just to jump in if I may.

 

What happens at the point of refinancing is that the bank calculate the rebate due for ppi on loan 1 and, in the background, restructure the ppi part of the loan to only take account of the ppi used up to the date of refinance.

 

This means that there is a residual balance on that part of loan 1. In order to pay that balance off, they roll it into loan 2 and you pay it off over the life of the new loan.

 

But because this relates to ppi, you claim it back as normal, i.e. when the payments actually go out of the new loan.

 

Confusing innit?

 

ims

 

Then you need to workout how much of loan 2 before PPI is made up of residual PPI from loan 1.

 

Once you know that then its just a case of applying that percentage to your monthly payments before PPI to find your monthly overcharge.

 

It's when you consolidate AGAIN it can seem to be confusing

[Fred_Funk]

Hi there

 

Just to jump in if I may.

 

What happens at the point of refinancing is that the bank calculate the rebate due for ppi on loan 1 and, in the background, restructure the ppi part of the loan to only take account of the ppi used up to the date of refinance.

 

This means that there is a residual balance on that part of loan 1. In order to pay that balance off, they roll it into loan 2 and you pay it off over the life of the new loan.

 

But because this relates to ppi, you claim it back as normal, i.e. when the payments actually go out of the new loan.

 

Confusing innit?

 

ims

 

Yes it is. Think I'm with you but would appreciate it if you could illustrate your explanation with some figures… ta muchly.

[xboxer]

Hi Fred if you have your agreements try putting the info into the spreadsheet I linked earlier, thta might help.

 

I will try and do a walkthrough of my figures later

[Fred_Funk]

Hi Fred if you have your agreements try putting the info into the spreadsheet I linked earlier, thta might help.

 

I will try and do a walkthrough of my figures later

 

Thanks xboxer but I got your figures. Just wasn't 100 per cent sure exactly what ims21 was saying - and, in particular, how they 'restructure the PPI part of the loan to only take account of the PPI used' - which was why I was keen for him to illustrate what he'd said with some figures.

[xboxer]

Morning All, Cover letter, 3 Questionnaires and Schedule of Claims sent this morning! Now the wait lol

[xboxer]

Just Tracked & Traced my letter, delivered and signed for this morning. Eight weeks to go!!

[xboxer]

morning all,

 

I've now had confirmation that claims for loans 1 & 3 are being reviewed. Standard letters saying they will try and resolve the problem in 5 days or advise a time frame if they can't, so more letters in 5 days then.

[xboxer]

Update, Now had the confirmation letter for loan 2 being reviewed.

[alibobsy]

Subbimg to this thread as I am at the stage of just starting my claim against them. still gathering up info and preparing my claim. We had I reckon about 5 or 6 claims and each one was refinanced into the next so the maths is going to get very complicated doh!

 

I also now remember they made a mistake with the last loan and didn't clear the whole amoun t of the previous loan and took 2 direct debits out of our account the following month. After a big arguement I think they refunded one direct debit then amalgamated the 2 into a third loan-each with PPI so horrible calculations.

 

Good luck with your claims

 

Ali x

[xboxer]

Subbimg to this thread as I am at the stage of just starting my claim against them. still gathering up info and preparing my claim. We had I reckon about 5 or 6 claims and each one was refinanced into the next so the maths is going to get very complicated doh!

 

I also now remember they made a mistake with the last loan and didn't clear the whole amoun t of the previous loan and took 2 direct debits out of our account the following month. After a big arguement I think they refunded one direct debit then amalgamated the 2 into a third loan-each with PPI so horrible calculations.

 

Good luck with your claims

 

Ali x

 

Hi Ali, if you give me shout when you have all your info I'll be able to tweak my spreadsheet to hopefully help you out.

 

If you click on the link on post #25 that will take you to the spreadsheet and should give you some insight to working out consolidated loans.

 

Also read Example 8 (page 119) in the FSA pdf in the stickies http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?305682-FSA-Handbook

[alibobsy]

Thanks for that, just trawling through paperwork now lol.

ali x

[xboxer]

Morning All,

Just an update on the saga so far….

Well still heard nothing yet and the 16 weeks are up on the 3rd October 2011.

I gave them a phone (recorded) on the 12th September to chase it up, was told after being on hold for 5 minutes that no decision has been reached yet but should hear within the next 2 weeks. Told them that the 16 weeks would soon be up and asked them what date they had for the deadline. They tried to pass off the deadline by saying "if you presume each month has 4 weeks then the 16 weeks will be up on 13th October". I then had to remind them that it is exactly 16 weeks so the date should 3rd October 2011.

So not only do BH seem to have done anything yet but they don't seem to even record the deadline dates on their systems, although I shouldn't be surprised at this.

I take it they should be contacting me within the 16 week period and not sending a letter out on the 7th day on the 15th week?

Not exactly filled with confidence that we're not reading any Blackhorse success stories, do they exist?

The only plus side is that while trying to get by charges back (now with the FOS) the Compliance & Risk Executive at BH has admitted in writing that they hold NO notes for my running of the accounts on their system.

Also with the SAR they sent copies of my bank statements and passport that were used for ID purposes when taking out the loans with no sign of any internal notes relating to needs analysis or questionnaires relating to PPI.

Will be interesting to see if/how they reject my claims.

[xboxer]

Morning All,

 

Well it's now the 3rd of October and 16 weeks (112 days) since BH signed for the delivery of my 3 claims (they were all in the same envelope) and still no decision!

 

So looks like I have not been told their decision WITHIN 16 weeks, so depending on the outcome their failure to adhere to FSA guidelines will be raised!

[alibobsy]

Still watching this xboxer, I am still chasing sme stuff for my SAR. But hoping they get it right this time lol. Once I have the paperwork will start my claims.

Have established from partial SAR reply and my old bank statements that we are looking at 9 loans. First 3 all refinanced into each other then paid off. New loan refinanced into another 3 then settled early. then 2 more loans at the end. Should add up to a fair bit in the end when I finally get there lol.

 

Hope you hear soon, and its a positive reply with a nice offer, although with black horse i wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Ali x

[xboxer]

Hi Ali, if your SAR turns up like mine i.e. NO archived internal notes on PPI and matching customers requirements to the product (even the FLA state this!) but archived my ID and bank statements, then I don't know how they could reject a claim with no evidence! But I have always been a glass half full person.

[xboxer]

Just spoke to the FOS and explained the still no response from BH.

 

Yes I should of received BH's response within the 16 week period.

 

So long as I have proof that it has been 16 weeks since BH received my claims then the FOS can take over if I want them to. I did state who it was and the claims are pre-2005 and they didn't seem bothered about that.

 

Told them I will wait a couple of days in case of postal delay and see what BH come back with before I decide my next step.

[xboxer]

Morning All,

Still hadn't heard anything this morning, 16 weeks and 2 days since they signed for my claims, so decided to phone (recorded) BH.

The PPI dedicated number goes through to the Edinburgh call centre now and they don't have access to old accounts. They are given 2 extensions numbers on a daily basis that they can use to contact the PPI claims department (not a public facing department).

So gave my 3 agreement numbers and was put on hold for a couple of minutes.

Apparently all 3 of my claims were reviewed last week and passed to the auditing department for them to review the calculations. This takes 2 -3 days then letters detailing my REFUNDS are sent out my second class post. I should have the letters by the end of this week or the beginning of next week.

The call centre person couldn't give me any details of the refunds, as in amounts or full or partial offer, as they are I quote "actively discouraged from doing this"

I have read other people stating BH offering back the difference of the rebate when consolidating their loans and dismissing the rest of the claim.

So I now wait with baited breath to see what they offer. Either way it's a positive step in the right direction.

BTW all 3 claims are pre 2005.

[xboxer]

Morning All,

 

Ok I got home last night and my letter was waiting for me.

 

The envelope was dated the 3rd October 2011, so posted on the last day of the 16 week extension and I have received it after and not within the 16 week period. So they have gone against the FSA before I even read it!

 

Having read through it and then again BH has once again managed to surprise me with their incompetence!

 

They are satisfied that after checking my eligibility and suitability of the policy, provided me with the appropriate information and ensured that they acted fairly towards me and taking into account any other relevant circumstances or information that may be available, that the only issue is with me receiving a non pro rata rebate when paying the loan off early!

 

They also told me I couldn't go to the FOS and had to go to the FLA but included a FOS handbook!

 

I was half expecting this but then it gets even better!

 

My last loan that was fully paid off in 2006 because they got a CCJ then subsequent charging order, they have listed it as a live loan with arrears! So have also deducted the arrears from the pathetic offer. Additionally even though the ppi on that loan ran for less than half the policy I have no rebate for that loan.

 

I have been offered about £900 where it should be about £7500, about 13% of my claim!

 

Now as I have said before they included a copy of my ID and bank statements (with hand written annotations on it) with my SAR but no information about how they judged ppi to be suitable makes me wonder what evidence they could be using as none seems to exist? This is something I shall be asking them!

 

As far as I'm concerned now that have admitted liability for one part and their continued inability to follow processes and read the information available, it shows that all my complaints are valid!

[xboxer]

Another day, another letter, more incompetence!!

Decided to email the CEO due to the mistakes BH made in my offer and got a reply from a supposed BH exec.

Time for another game of count the mistakes.

2 identical letters in the same envelope, date of the email wrong by 6 days and different figures for the first loan.

This is before I get to the content of the letter and their "findings".

Insisting they did not break the FSA guidelines (despite me including a scan of the postmarked envelope with the email), after doing another thorough investigation still saying no mis-selling, the mistake with my final loan was the "wrong calculator being used" and have offered about an extra £500.

So I decided to phone (RECORDED) the BH exec and see what was going on. Despite me including and stating the attachment was my main complaint and the email was a brief overview / cover letter they apparently read it then only answered the email.

I had to push and push to get an answer about what they investigated as there is no longer any records from the point of sale, turns out the "thorough" investigation is………checking my age at the time and my employment!!! With this they feel I was eligible so couldn't have been mis-sold. Also I signed the agreement. That is all they have done for the investigation.

Completely laughable and contemptuous. Went around in circles for a couple of minutes whilst they kept saying "but you signed the agreement", if it was as simple as that there would be no mis-selling scandal.

On the basis of this "investigation" and "evidence" I obviously want to progress this further.

The problem I have is FOS will probably have to go after the underwriters as it's pre 2005 but will take ages to get a result.

Not to sure how strong of a case I would have if I go court route?

Thoughts anyone?