Citi Cards being obstructive with SAR

[Master Chief]

Thanks again nicklea. I was just thinking that the date of notice was the important legal date, which does differ. But it is no matter, just one of many bow strings I'm plucking at.

[Master Chief]

Just an update on things, as regards the CRA info.

 

I have been playing letter ping pong with the DCA (1St Crud) for some time and making official complaints about everything that I have identified. Toward the end of last year I put in an official complaint to Equifax in relation to the incorrect and outdated information (via its online query) and I had a response from 1st Crud via Equifax saying that although there was no proof that the 'Settled' marker (re Experian Nov' 06 report) was not the same account, the information should not be shown due to it being over 6 years since the original default!

 

The upshot is that, on the 25/1/2011, the information was removed from Equifax!

 

Great news I know, but why so easy? As far as I can see from other peopels experience, trying to get information removed from your credit file is similar to attempting dentistry on a fully lucid and unrestrained crocodile!

 

This makes me think, together with the denial that it is the same account, me thinks that some cages have been rattled! As a side not, proving that they are the same account would be easier than proving otherwise.

 

Anyway, it would seem that a minor battle has been won. Now to consider if I should take further action.

[The Debt Star]

Thanks for the update MC. Our thoughts are with you.

[Master Chief]

thanks for the update mc. Our thoughts are with you.

 

ty ds.

 

Mc

[Master Chief]

Hi all,

 

It's all been quiet on the Western front since Xmas and for other reasons I'd put various bits on the backburner.

 

However, on Easter Saturday I received a lovely gift from our illustrious friends at 1st Crud in the form of an "alleged" True Copy of my CCA, reconstituted , not a signed executed agreement.

 

They are requesting that I respond with a payment offer within 14 days!

 

I wonder if any of you kind, knowledgeable people could give the documents the once over and let me know what you think.

 

I haven't been on the forums in a while and am a little out of touch as to what the situation is regarding court proceedings being issued on the back of reconstituted agreements. My last understanding was that as this agreement was allegedly taken out in 2001, the protection of CCA 1974 s.127(3) applies, i.e in order for 1st crud to persue this in the courts they would require the original signed executed agreement; is this still the case?

What is my next move?

Mnay thanks to all in advance.

MC.

CCA TC 2.pdf

CCA TC 1.pdf

CCA TC Cover Letter.pdf

[coledog]

Send them this. They will probably come back and quote Carey back at you but that ruling was in completely different circumstances. Welcome back!

 

 

Address

 

Date

 

Dear sir/madam

 

I acknowledge no debt to your company.

 

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78.

 

As you have forwarded a reconstituted agreement, you will need to confirm that you have the original signed Agreement, and in what form, ie microfiche, together with the reason this has not been sent at this request.

 

I consider that this account is still in dispute.

 

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under s65. However, the absence of any ( signature ) means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under s127(3).

 

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above account is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.

 

After this period you should close the file and cease processing an personal data relating to me on this matter.

 

Yours faithfully

[nicklea]

The trouble is with the above letter that there is no compulsion for them to supply anything with your signature on. It is perfectly ok for them to supply you with reconstituted agreements in response to a SAR request.

 

So I would suggest that while the above letter may well help you vent your anger it won't actually achieve much.

 

The real trouble is that it can be very difficult to actually see the signed agreement until you are taken to court - by which time it is a bit late.

 

One possibility would be to make a s10 DPA request on the ground that there is no signed agreement in existence. They will also fail to respond to that and you can then take them to court

[Master Chief]

Hi Coledog & nicklea, thanks for the quick replies. Nice to hear from you peeps again.

 

Any views on the actual documents themselves, are they kosher?

 

Cheers,

 

MC.

[coledog]

Thanks Nicklea, I agree but I strongly suspect that Citi do not have the originals or are not prepared to divulge them. They cannot even supply application forms. No original documents have yet been produced in court in my experience, in a Citi case. I am not sure that these 'recons' even meet with Carey as they only show T and Cs at the start and end of the account and no variations in between.

 

Never used an s10 application so this is interesting. Just continuing to object to the CCA response does seem effective with these DCAs, though.

[coledog]

The 'recon', MC is a standard Citi recon but have never heard of one presented to a court, unless someone can enlighten me.

[gettingsorted]

Subbing with interest

[Master Chief]

Hi gettingsorted and welcome.

 

nicklea: Could you explain a little what an S10 is and what is its benefit? Thanks.

 

Coledog: I guess your suggested approach is two-fold. Encourage them to just go away and start the stat-barred clock, would I be right?

 

Thanks again,

 

MC

[coledog]

My advice is based on the fact that I have never yet seen a DCA produce a Citi agreement in court, even if they have previously issued a recon in response to a CCA request. I could be wrong and I would like any more info anyone has on this. The Citi recons are also normally made up of two sets of T&Cs, one suppose to be when the account was opened, usually with 'The Associates' and one when the account was closed, they do not cover any changes that may have occured in between. Citi seem to be a very disfunctional company IMO and I am not sure that they would actually supply information to support the limited documentation they are providing

[Master Chief]

Hi all,

 

I've not been on the forums in a while as I have been busy with other stuff. However, there have been some developments of late with our illustrious friends at 1st Crud, as follows:

 

All had been pretty quiet until recently when I received from 1st Crud' copies of original creditors statements and a note to contact them, which was ignored. Then an email to contact them, which was treated the same. Now I have received a threatogram from thier in-house legal vultures LCS (R D Marr); in essence 'pay up or we MAY take you to court'!

 

There was a time that something like this would have sent me into a mad panic, but things are different now and I'm inclined just to do the same with this worthless piece of junk and file it under 'IGNORE'. Or not?

 

Current situation is that they have sent what they claim is a recon, but contains no variations, signature etc. and my understanding is that this is not sufficient for a court to make a judgement. Also, is it not the case that if there are variations to the original agreement then the 'original' or an actual copy of the 'original' CCA be provided and nothing else would saisfy the CCA request? sorry, I'm a bit rusty having been out of the loop for some time and need a refresher.

 

Anyway, should I be concerned or is this the usual bluster?

 

And I know I've seen plenty of posts about LCS, second desk to the right of the phone monkees (who no longer bother me), are they actual bona-fide solicitors? I thought I read previous posts that stated they are not proper solicitors and not registered with the SRA, they do list a registration number on the letter '3752940'??????

 

Anyway, your advice welcomed as usual.

 

Regards,

 

MC

[coledog]

Hi Mate

 

Glad to see you back! I would ignore and send a complaint to OFT about them sending you misleading and threatening pseudo legal correspondence. 1st Crud have been under a 'warning' for years so about time they got more stick.Think they are a bit busy with some other DCA who will remain nameless. Did you write back to them and inform them that the recon was a load of old bull and Account still in dispute?

[Master Chief]

Hi coledog,

 

Thanks for the reply, yep I did write back saying it was a pile of hogwash, but clearly they need a reminder.

 

You'll have a PM shortly.

 

Cheers,

 

MC

[Master Chief]

Hi to all,

 

Really need some urgent help calculting the rate of interest applied to CC statements, but haven't a clue where to start!

 

If anyone can help/advise i would be very greatful.

 

Thanks,

 

MC

[ims21]

Hi

 

How can I help?

 

Regards

 

ims

[Master Chief]

Hi

 

How can I help?

 

Regards

 

ims

 

Hi ims,

 

I have sent you a PM.

 

Thanks,

 

MC

[ims21]

Been thinking on this and haven't come up with a solution I'm afraid.

 

To recreate an account and arrive at interest rates is very, very complex and the first thing you would need to know is which interest algorithm the lender is using.

 

There are, as I am sure you are aware, many different ways which are used by lenders to calculate interest.

 

When that hurdle is overcome there are further problems. One needs to be able to run interest calculations on each item of spend for an interest charging period and then adjust that result for any payments made into the account and any charge-backs.

 

Consideraion would also need to be given to any cash withdrawals which are generally charged at a different rate of interest.

 

And then you have the problem as to how the lender applies payments. Presumably it is against the earlier purchases first OR is it against cash withdrawals first. If there is a fee for the account does that get allocated first?

 

There are too many variables to arrive at a half decent result and even if we did know all of the above stuff it would be a monumental task to write a program that would deal with it. It is beyond the capability of a spreadsheet alone.

 

You may find something on-line that has already been written tha might have a crack at it for you, possibly in a shareware library somewhere but I wouldn't hold out much hope.

 

You might need to engage the paid help of a professional to crack this one as it is beyond the scope of what we can offer here I reckon.

 

I'd like to be able to help but I am stumped I'm afraid.

 

For any reader of this thread, the above is a general opinion on the reconstruction of accounts for the "home user" and is not relevant to any particular case at this time. It resulted from a general question asked by the OP in a PM.

 

Regards

 

ims

Edited September 10, 2011 by ims21

[Guest]

don't know the details, but this brief article by site team cagger Steven4064 re interest may be of some help?

http://www.consumerwiki.co.uk/index.php/Interest_Tutorial

[Master Chief]

Thanks ims21 & Ford, very 'interesting'.

 

MC

[Guest]

also, see for eg.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30085[/ATTACH]

[Master Chief]

Hi All,

 

As some may know, I currently have a disputed account with 1st Crud in regards of an Associates Credit Card, allegedly applied for by me in 2001. It is currently in dispute on the grounds of CCA s.78 request failure and an incorrect balance claimed.

 

1st Crud have supplied a laughable attempt at a recon', which they swear blind is a 'TRUE' copy, even though it has more (excuse the pun) flaws than the Empire State! I won't go on, because most of it is covered in another thread.

 

My question here is, can I reclaim the charges on this account some 15 x £20 over the course of a year.

 

Admittedly, they did refund the first 4 charges, but this was charges only and no interest was refunded.

 

The charges are as follows:

 

April 02 to July 02 - 4 x £20 charges- refunded, but charges only.

 

Aug' 02 to Dec' 02 - 5 x £20 charges - not refunded (Dec' 02 shows the last payment made to Associates)

 

Jan' 03 to March 03 - 6 x £20 charges - not refunded (sold to 1st Crud inMarch 03)

 

Additionally, upon sale of the account to 1st Crud the balance increased by around a further £80, but as yet there has been no explanation for this despite DSAR's to both OC and DCA.

 

What if anything can I claim?

 

 

Cheers,

 

MC

Edited September 20, 2011 by Master Chief
typo

[ims21]

Hi MC

 

You can claim all charges plus compound interest at least at the rate they were charging you....higher perhaps if you are willing to sue for interest in restitution.

 

Do you want to go for restitution or are you happy with their rate plus 8% Stat?

 

Either way you may have to be prepared to issue against them.

 

Regards

 

ims