Full & Final Settlement offer advice on how to clear asap

[The Mould]

Hello horsemad1,

 

I have responded to your question (s).

 

Don't worry about these creditors.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[The Mould]

Guys

 

I'm looking for a bit of advice. After a long fight (lasting nearly 3 years during which time I've paid only £50 on one occasion) one of my remaining creditors has just appointed new lawyers (not a DCA) who have offered me a 25% F&F deal. I have been playing cat and mouse with the OC and its previous lawyers for the last 3 years now. They have both kept refusing to accept my "affordable" £50 monthly payment (as recommended by CCCS) and the previous lawyers kept sending me the wrong bits of paper when I did a CCA request, and refused to certify that they were "the right" or accept they were "wrong" bits of paper (they were actually nothing to do with my loan).

 

25% is very tempting as they were quite hard nosed for quite a long time - and my family will gladly sub me the cash to get the remaining 75% written off. However it looks as if their new lawyers may have advised them their CCA is unenforecable - I don't know because I've never had the right bits of paper sent so I can check it out!

 

Should I grab the 25% for a quiet life - or play hard ball, demanding they furnish a true copy of the original signed CCA first - and risk them coming up with the original agreement which ends up being enforceable, and then demanding the full 100% again?

 

If I were to accept the 25% F&F subject to them providing a true copy of the full original signed agreement can they just pull out of the deal - or must they leave it on the table while I await the eveidence of an enforceable CCA? I would even be willing to pay up on the basis it was later returned if no enforceable CCA turns up in say 6 months.

 

I know how to word the standard "F&F acceptance letter". What I'm not sure about is whether to send it off at all, or caveat it with reference to the proper original signed CCA turning up!

 

BD

 

Hello BD,

 

What does their letter of settlement state?

 

If you are happy with this offer and their terms of offer are unequivocally in Full and Final Settlement of the account, then perhaps it would be a good idea to get this one off your desk.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[dx100uk]

Guys

 

I'm looking for a bit of advice. After a long fight (lasting nearly 3 years during which time I've paid only £50 on one occasion) one of my remaining creditors has just appointed new lawyers (not a DCA) who have offered me a 25% F&F deal. I have been playing cat and mouse with the OC and its previous lawyers for the last 3 years now. They have both kept refusing to accept my "affordable" £50 monthly payment (as recommended by CCCS) and the previous lawyers kept sending me the wrong bits of paper when I did a CCA request, and refused to certify that they were "the right" or accept they were "wrong" bits of paper (they were actually nothing to do with my loan).

 

25% is very tempting as they were quite hard nosed for quite a long time - and my family will gladly sub me the cash to get the remaining 75% written off. However it looks as if their new lawyers may have advised them their CCA is unenforecable - I don't know because I've never had the right bits of paper sent so I can check it out!

 

Should I grab the 25% for a quiet life - or play hard ball, demanding they furnish a true copy of the original signed CCA first - and risk them coming up with the original agreement which ends up being enforceable, and then demanding the full 100% again?

 

If I were to accept the 25% F&F subject to them providing a true copy of the full original signed agreement can they just pull out of the deal - or must they leave it on the table while I await the eveidence of an enforceable CCA? I would even be willing to pay up on the basis it was later returned if no enforceable CCA turns up in say 6 months.

 

I know how to word the standard "F&F acceptance letter". What I'm not sure about is whether to send it off at all, or caveat it with reference to the proper original signed CCA turning up!

 

BD

 

 

if these make believe lawyers [which is the next desk at most DCA's or the secretary just putting a diff letterhead in the printer] are offering a 75% discount to clear your debt, there is only one thing to conclude........

they do not have any legally binding agreement & know it can never be enforced. they are fleecing you to line their own pockets.

 

tell them to bugger off and stop talking to them .

 

these 'lawyers' can do nothing to you, it just to frighten you into doing 'something.

 

ignore them totally ....gameover.

 

you pay...you are a mug.

 

dx

[Dotty50]

Hi Horsemad1,

 

Do you mind me asking what sort of amounts we are talking about here and what % you are sending for F & F?

[horsemad1]

About £55k For the unenforceable ones I started off at 15% and they refused and then I reduced it to 5% because I thought I could just ignore it and they couldnt enforce it, however it wouldnt stop them chasing and being passed from one DCA to another, so decided to offer very low settlements and if they accepted would get them off my case forever.

[Dotty50]

Thanks horsemad,

 

Thanks for that info, I wish you all the best, it will be interesting to see how it progresses.

[The Mould]

Hello horsemad1,

 

I will draft that letter shortly.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

 

PS. Is your OH alright, I mean has your OH had a look at all the case law rulings on Full and Final Settlements, because if your OH has then he/she will be able to relax.

[horsemad1]

He keeps reading case law & gets more confused by it I think. I think the leading case under these circumstances is Hirachand Punamchand v Temple and as far as I am aware, (although you may correct me) the ruling for this still applies today or is there a more recent example?

[Bigdebtor]

if these make believe lawyers [which is the next desk at most DCA's or the secretary just putting a diff letterhead in the printer] are offering a 75% discount to clear your debt, there is only one thing to conclude........

they do not have any legally binding agreement & know it can never be enforced. they are fleecing you to line their own pockets.

 

tell them to bugger off and stop talking to them .

 

these 'lawyers' can do nothing to you, it just to frighten you into doing 'something.

 

ignore them totally ....gameover.

 

you pay...you are a mug.

 

dx

 

DX

 

1. I KNOW these are real reputable local lawyers - a year or so ago I even asked them to help me with fighting the previous lot and they declined because they are also retained by the OC.

2. The previous lot of wallies sent me an incomplete agreement and T&C's belonging to a totally different subsiduary loan company - and didn't understand why I was still querying things. They eventually went away bruised and battered.

3. I KNOW the Loan agreement is enforceable (I still have my full copy). If I accept the 25% offer I will actually have paid back less than I borrowed - so I've had an interest free loan over 7 years - and a discount on the amount borrowed. I have never been charged any punitive interest or "default charges" by them. Apart from refusing the affordable payments I first offered over 3 years ago the OC has behaved reasonably (for an OC) - their last lot of lawyers were the real dumbos.

4. The new lot have committed to retrieving the full agreement if I dig my heels in at this point.

5. If they DID take me to Court they would probably only get £50 a month (or even less) awarded - so no better off than my current monthly offer. However I don't want to be still paying lots of £50 monthly amounts to all and sundry when I'm in my 70's!

6. The only thing that would make me dig my heels in now would be a reassurance that the 25% offer would still be on the table if/when they did retrieve their own copy of the full original enforceable CCA.

7. I take it that I can't insist the offer stays open until they show me what they've got?

 

All in all I think paying the 25% is pragmatic - not stupid. It will also give me the time to continue fighting the others who have charged me £1000's in default charges and who (I'm certain) don't have enforceable agreements or have screwed themselves with dodgy DN's and TN's.

 

Thanks to all for your advice - it has helped me clarify my thinking on this one.

 

BD

Edited May 28, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos

[dx100uk]

your call

just make it a condition of your settlement that ALL adverse info is removed from your CRa file and the loan is shown as settled NOT partial settlement and that them nor none of their agents can ever chase the debt again else it will comeback and bite you.

 

but i'd not pay a thing to anybody till the CCA they hold proves enforceable.

 

dx

[The Mould]

Good morning to you all,

 

I would just like to say, that we all know that many credit agreements are unenforceable, however, it will be for the Court to decide that fact.

 

So, simply because the agreement is incomplete or flawed in many ways the debt remains, I do not like any creditor, but the money or credit has been used by you for whatever reason, so in these circumstances one should undertake the honourable and rightful action of negotiating a compromise with your creditors, a settlement to your account.

 

There are many bad debtors, the ones who run up a credit bill with the intention of never paying the money back, do not let your selves fall down to that level.

 

A few years ago now, I had a serious and dramatic change in my personal life, my wife became very ill, she was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis - secondary progressive, I was self-employed and I could no longer go out to work to earn my money for our household, financially we had no income absolutely zero income.

 

I could not afford to pay any creditor, not even £1.00, my credit agreements were flawed, incomplete and unenforceable, but I did not use that to whelsh on my debts I had used this credit and I wanted to honour the agreements that I had entered into.

 

My father-in-law, who was retired and suffering from cancer borrowed money against his home that he had worked all of his life to pay for in order to pay settlements to all of my creditors apart from our mortgage.

 

Each one of our creditors received almost all of the money back that I had borrowed, I owe my life to my father-in-law.

 

The point is, if you borrowed you should pay back, afterall, did you care about whether the agreement was complete and compliant with the CCA 1974 at the time of entering into the agreement.

 

I was very fortunate to have such a wonderful father-in-law who borrowed without hesitation to keep us alive, I really could not do anything on my own to pay the money back because I needed to be at home for my family as there is not any care from the government or any help at all from the government.

 

The conduct of these creditors is unacceptable and inexcusable, the Courts are fed up with debtors claiming unenforceable agreements.

 

The Courts should be fed up with these creditors whose personnel obviously lack the qualifications and the skill to perform their duties in such a manner that is fully compliant with all legislation.

 

The fat cat (as they are called) CEOs and Chairpersons and Directors of these organizations pay them selves incredibly high wages and bonuses, instead the money should be invested in their personnel to ensure that they have the required skills to perform their duties in this market place.

 

On another note, there is no such thing in this life as being debt free, no one will ever be debt free in this life.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

Edited May 28, 2010 by The Mould
Spelling

[Bigdebtor]

DX/Mould

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

My thinking is along Mould's lines. I agree there is a moral angle too - but only where the other side has not been too devious or underhand.

 

I got into debt building up a business and through a combination of serious illness and a big PLC bringing out a software product which undercut the one I had spent approaching half a million developing over 5 years, I could no longer even keep up the monthly repayments.

 

This particular OC, while being a pain in not accepting the CCCS-advised £50 per month, has nevertheless never charged me additional interest or default fees on the Loan. I think paying the 25% F&F on offer is both morally correct and pragmatic - it also actually means I have had the Loan for teh last 7 years more than interest free!

 

I will ensure they do sort out my credit rating etc. with the CRA's - but other debts mean it is totally shot anyway.

 

As for chancers like Cr*p one, Egg, Goldfish etc. who have charged me £1000's in default fees and very high interest (much higher than when the cards were taken ot) then it's still WAR - NO CCA or dodgy DN/TN = no more payments.

 

BD

 

PS - What's the best template I can use to accept their F&F offer?

[horsemad1]

Dont use a template, do your own and always state 'without admission of liability to the amount claimed'.

[The Mould]

DX/Mould

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

My thinking is along Mould's lines. I agree there is a moral angle too - but only where the other side has not been too devious or underhand.

 

I got into debt building up a business and through a combination of serious illness and a big PLC bringing out a software product which undercut the one I had spent approaching half a million developing over 5 years, I could no longer even keep up the monthly repayments.

 

This particular OC, while being a pain in not accepting the CCCS-advised £50 per month, has nevertheless never charged me additional interest or default fees on the Loan. I think paying the 25% F&F on offer is both morally correct and pragmatic - it also actually means I have had the Loan for teh last 7 years more than interest free!

 

I will ensure they do sort out my credit rating etc. with the CRA's - but other debts mean it is totally shot anyway.

 

As for chancers like Cr*p one, Egg, Goldfish etc. who have charged me £1000's in default fees and very high interest (much higher than when the cards were taken ot) then it's still WAR - NO CCA or dodgy DN/TN = no more payments.

 

BD

 

PS - What's the best template I can use to accept their F&F offer?

 

Hello BD,

 

Can you post up their settlement offer letter?

 

If you can, I will have a look at it later on this evening.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[Bigdebtor]

Mould

 

I had offerred the 25% by phone and followed it up by e-mail.

 

The relevant parts of my e-mail were:

 

As you would see in my Statement of Means, I am operating at a deficit month on month and am in negative equity regarding assets and liabilities. I believe that, if a decree is obtained, I would be able to demonstrate to the court what I can afford, without family support, to pay. That sum would be significantly below the £50 per month offered. However I hope there may be a way to resolve this matter today. My family are willing to offer £xxxx (25%) in full and final settlement of all sums due. This payment can be made within a week of your acceptance.

 

Their letter replied:

 

We write to advise that your offer of ££££ (25%) in full and final settlement has been accepted by our client. We look forward to receiving payment week commencing 31 May 2010.

 

Your help in drafting a suitable response letter would be appreciated.

 

BD

[The Mould]

Mould

 

I had offerred the 25% by phone and followed it up by e-mail.

 

The relevant parts of my e-mail were:

 

As you would see in my Statement of Means, I am operating at a deficit month on month and am in negative equity regarding assets and liabilities. I believe that, if a decree is obtained, I would be able to demonstrate to the court what I can afford, without family support, to pay. That sum would be significantly below the £50 per month offered. However I hope there may be a way to resolve this matter today. My family are willing to offer £xxxx (25%) in full and final settlement of all sums due. This payment can be made within a week of your acceptance.

 

 

Their letter replied:

 

 

We write to advise that your offer of ££££ (25%) in full and final settlement has been accepted by our client. We look forward to receiving payment week commencing 31 May 2010.

BD, this is quite vague, there is no mention of the account No, however, if they did play the conduct of deceit, they would be unsuccessful if they attempted to sue you for the remaining balance (in these circumstances)

 

Your help in drafting a suitable response letter would be appreciated.

 

BD

 

I will do that tommorrow night BD and post it up for you.

Kind Regards

The Mould

[The Mould]

Sorry BD for not getting back to you sooner.

 

I will post something for you tommorrow if that's alright.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[Bigdebtor]

Mould

 

In response to your query re Account No etc. I confirm they did include this info in the heading and again in the body of the letter. I am pretty sure there is nothing devious going on.

 

The letter is not from any dodgy DCA, in-house "solicitor" etc. - but from a well known firm of reputable solicitors who are retained by the big Banks to act for them.

 

You are right to be suspicious - but in this case I am certain the offer is kosher.

 

Incidentaly I need to get payment off to them to reach them by the end of this week to stay within the terms of my offer - which they accepted.

 

BD

[The Mould]

Mould

 

In response to your query re Account No etc. I confirm they did include this info in the heading and again in the body of the letter. I am pretty sure there is nothing devious going on.

 

The letter is not from any dodgy DCA, in-house "solicitor" etc. - but from a well known firm of reputable solicitors who are retained by the big Banks to act for them.

 

You are right to be suspicious - but in this case I am certain the offer is kosher.

 

Incidentaly I need to get payment off to them to reach them by the end of this week to stay within the terms of my offer - which they accepted.

 

BD

 

OK BD,

 

Well that seems to be all in order then, send your letter of offer off to them and ensure that your settlement offer fully corresponds and cross references their acceptance letter, perhaps include a copy of their acceptance to the settlement agreement.

 

In your circumstances when they receive the offer with the cheque payment enclosed it will be inequitable in law for them to resile on their agreement to the Full and Final Settlement payment.

 

I hope that will help you.

 

As they have agreed to a lesser sum you do not need to make the offer 'Without any admission of liability'.

 

They have given a promise and you are acting on that promise.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[The Mould]

Horsemad1,

 

Have you sent those replies off yet?

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[horsemad1]

Have done them today, was waiting to see if anymore cheques got cashed but with the bank holiday, don't suppose there would be anyway. the majority have been cashed now, just the odd few that im not to worried about as small amounts and totally unenforceable, but will let you know their reponses as I get them. Thanks for your help.

[socleirigh]

Hi,

 

I have read this thread with great interest. I was wondering if this method of full and final can be used where a creditor has already obtained a CCJ.

 

The reason I ask is if the letter and cheque are sent to the creditor and they cash the cheque, thus accepting the contract written in the letter, then would this contract supersede a court judgement?

[horsemad1]

Im not sure about it superseding a Court Judgement. But did you go down the CCA route with this? Is there any reason where you could justify getting the Judgement set aside? If so, You may then be in a good position to offer F&F.

[Bigdebtor]

I agree with Horsemad1.

 

I don't think the 3rd party cheque ploy (although great when properly used) will supersede a Learned Judge - and could be deemed abuse of process. Better to try for set aside if you've the grounds.

 

BD

[The Mould]

Hi,

 

I have read this thread with great interest. I was wondering if this method of full and final can be used where a creditor has already obtained a CCJ.

 

The reason I ask is if the letter and cheque are sent to the creditor and they cash the cheque, thus accepting the contract written in the letter, then would this contract supersede a court judgement?

 

Hello socleirigh,

 

You cannot supersede a Court Judgment, you would need to make the application to the court to set aside the CCJ.

 

Why no discuss the matter with the other side first and see what their response is.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould