Illegal U-Turn PCN please help!

[jennypopper]

Hi there,

 

Firstly, this is definitely a new sign. Before I went to the site I was almost confident that it wasn't there. But as many have pointed out, when driving the same route everyday, sometimes you fail to notice these things. I need to find out when this sign was put up.

 

Secondly, could it be claimed that this sign is somewhat misleading? Couldn't it mean no u turn IN 150 yards?

 

 

It doesn't say "for" like here: http://www.freefoto.com/images/41/06/41_06_91---No-U-Turn-Road-Sign_web.jpg

[sailor sam]

Sorry Conniff, I agree with the OP here. The plate supporting the sign is unclear. It should state 'For Next 150 Yards' in my opinion but as it states only '150 Yards' one could argue it could mean 'in' 150 yards. Personally I dont think it requires a plate at all as it is pretty obvious what it is reffering to but as it does have a plate, it needs to be correct. It is worth the OP checking the council website to look at when the traffic order came into force. In any evnt I think the Op should ask to see the video evidence which will show whether the sign was present when the 'offence' was commited. Although this is irrelevant to the OPs case, I note that in the first picture showing the 'No Right Turn' from Whittington Road shows only one sign and although it is supported by a 'Turn Left Only' blue sign on the central reservation, there should be another 'No Right Turn' sign opposite the one in the picture.

 

My advice is to appeal the PCN on the grounds of the meaning of the plate supporting the sign is unclear.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

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[jennypopper]

Thanks for your reply.

 

By "plate" do you mean the "150 yards" sign underneath?

 

What is the best appealing procedure? Do they freeze the fee increase?

 

Are there any sticky guides to appealing?

 

Thanks again

[crem]

It looks to me as if they have a legitimate claim. The signs says 'No U turns for 150 yards' so how can you appeal that?

 

No it doesn't say that Conniff, and that is the point of this debate. We are all agreeing that may be their intention, but it does not say "FOR" 150 yards, and a number on it's own under a sign usually means "IN" 150 yards.

[patdavies]

A plate placed with a no U-turn sign may only read "for + distance" - TSRGD2002.

 

If the plate simply says "150 yds", then it is unlawful (unless the Council can show existence of specific permission from the SoS to use a non-standard sign)

 

Therefore no offence as the sign is not as prescribed (Davies v Heatley)

[jennypopper]

A plate placed with a no U-turn sign may only read "for + distance" - TSRGD2002.

 

Thanks patdavies. Where did you get this from? Can it be found here: The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

 

Thanks for everyones help

[sailor sam]

As I said in my post #27; the sign does not need a plate and would of been enforceable had it not had one but it's the plate which makes it appealable.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Conniff]

A plate placed with a no U-turn sign may only read "for + distance" - TSRGD2002.

 

If the plate simply says "150 yds", then it is unlawful (unless the Council can show existence of specific permission from the SoS to use a non-standard sign)

 

Therefore no offence as the sign is not as prescribed (Davies v Heatley)

 

I can't see that anywhere in the quoted TSRGD Pat. Can you point it out as I have always taken the distance below a sign to mean for an order for the next xx.

[Conniff]

Firstly, this is definitely a new sign. Before I went to the site I was almost confident that it wasn't there. But as many have pointed out, when driving the same route everyday, sometimes you fail to notice these things. I need to find out when this sign was put up.

 

Jenny

 

You will have to be seen passing the 'No U turn' sign (which must be visible), in order for an offence to have been commited.

 

God, all this reading from searches is turning into war and piece six time over.

[bribri]

Drove down bounds green road today, noticed the sign for the first time. Before I read everyones comments, I was going to say that I was really surprised that it read no U turn at end of a 150 yard stretch, i.e. totally unprompted, I read it as a warning of an upcoming prohibition. That is how a Give Way or Stop warning works. Although a no overtaking sign or zig zag bends works the other way.

 

Have I helped or muddied??

[sb118]

.... warning of an upcoming prohibition. That is how a Give Way or Stop warning works. ...

 

I've always found Stop & Give Way signs to be located at the point of action myself.

[bribri]

SB - to be more precise, on occasion when there are bends on e.g.country lanes you get a warning of a give way.

 

Not an issue here really.

[patdavies]

I can't see that anywhere in the quoted TSRGD Pat. Can you point it out as I have always taken the distance below a sign to mean for an order for the next xx.

 

Diagram 614 is a No U-turn. TSRGD allows co-location of Diagram 570 ( "For" + distance). The only variation allowed to 570 is the actual distance.

 

So you are right, it means for the next xx. It can never mean in xx. But to be valid, it must state "For".

[Conniff]

Well in confirmation of what Pat has said, I have just read 2 million manuals each with 6million 428 thousand chapters which in turn being made up of 27 million 603 pages.

 

There are no exceptions to the sign 'For', so unless they have some sort of special exception (and why would they for a common sign), they have got it wrong and an appeal should be made that the sign is illegal in accordance with the Traffic Signal Regulations.

 

OK - it wasn't that many manuals, but it sure seemed like it.

[jennypopper]

So do well agree I have strong enough grounds to appeal?

 

Is there a sticky on the best way to do so. What exactly I should write. should I call them to let them know I am appealing?

 

Many thanks

[Conniff]

I would quote the ticket number along with ha ha stick it on the end of a flaming arrow and shoot it through their window

[jennypopper]

Haha..

 

No seriously! I have never appealed anything before...

[Conniff]

The experts will be back later, they will put you right. Good luck Jenny.

[jennypopper]

any experts out there lol?

[sailor sam]

Word the appeal aloong ther lines of;

 

Dear idiots at Haringey,

 

REF: PCN: (insert number) DATE: (insert date) Location: (insert location)

 

I wish to appeal the above penatlty chrcge notice on the following grounds;

 

The newly installed 'No U-Turn Sign' at the junction with Clarence Road is supported by a plate bearing the wording; '150 yards' only and omits to indicate whether it has the meaning of 'for the next 150 yards from the position of the sign' or 'in 150 yards following the position of the sign'.

 

I believe the plate is ambiguous which renders the sign un-inforceable as it does not fully comply with the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

 

I therefore request that on this occasion you cancel the penalty charge notice.

 

Thanking you in anticipation.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

A. Nother Victim.

 

Plesae check for spelling because I did this in rather a hurry!

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[jennypopper]

Hi Sam,

 

Since you wrote that I drafted something myself. Let me know what you think. Not sure if it makes sense or if its OTT!

 

04/05/2010

Vehicle Registration: xxx

ADRESS xxxx

RE: Penalty Charge Notice Number: XXXXXX

Dear Sir / Madam,

I wish to appeal this PCN on the grounds that the no U-turn signage was not in line with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. As stated in the TSRGD, a no U-turn sign (diagram 614) is allowed to be used in conjunction with diagram 570 (“For” + distance). The sign on Bounds Green Road, where the alleged contravention took place shows diagram 614 in conjunction with just a distance (i.e. 150 yards). This is an invalid co-location and therefore renders the sign as invalid and illegal in accordance with the Traffic Signal Regulations.

Below is a photo of the sign as evidence.

Furthermore, it is stated in case law:

Davies v Heatley [1971] R.T.R 145

"Because by s.64(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind"

Hence I trust the PCN will be cancelled.

If you do wish to pursue the PCN then please enclose with your response a copy of the relevant Traffic Order and consider this a request under the freedom of information act.

Yours faithfully,

JP

[jennypopper]

Just got off the phone with a guy in the council who put up that sign. eventually he admitted it was wrong but said it probably won't be sufficient grounds to appeal....

[Conniff]

If that should be the case then you go to arbitration.

[patdavies]

Just got off the phone with a guy in the council who put up that sign. eventually he admitted it was wrong but said it probably won't be sufficient grounds to appeal....

 

Nice try by the council at blagging the money:eek:.

 

That should be your last phone call. Do everything in writing from now forwards.

 

They have admitted in the phone call that the sign is wrong in that it is non-compliant. Thus, in settled case law, the sign does not exist; and cannot be enforced.

[jennypopper]

Thus, in settled case law, the sign does not exist; and cannot be enforced.

 

Would it be taking the Michael if i were to continue U turning there until the sign is changed Saves a whole 2 minutes from my journey!

 

Furthermore, was the above letter ok?