Audio-recording your consultations with NHS doctors

[sandsoftime]

As Jonathan Swift put it:

"He'd rather choose that I should die

Than his prediction prove a lie"

 

and also, on doctors:

"The doctors tender of their fame

Wisely on me lay all the blame

"We must confess his case was nice

But he would never take advice"

[nolegion]

The Modern Hamlet

(ex Act III scene iv)

 

 

Queen [Gertrude]:

 

....................................Alas, how is't with you,

 

That you do bend your eye on vacancy,

 

And with th' incorporal air do hold discourse?

 

Forth at your eyes your spirits wildly peep,

 

And, as the sleeping soldiers in th'alarm,

 

Your bedded hair, like life in excrements,

 

Start up and stand on end. O gentle son,

 

Upon the heat and flame of thy distemper

 

Sprinkle cool patience. Whereon do you look?

 

 

 

Hamlet:

 

[ I'm on my flippin' mobile, dork.]

[honeybee13]

Great poetry guys, it's nice to see the thread lighten up for a little while.

 

My best, HB

[nolegion]

Thanks, HB. I was cheered by sands-o-t’s contribution, too. But now , alas, it’s back to my usual rancour and gloom - with a vengeance(!).

 

My dear sister - bullied into the grave (part 1)

 

Anyone who has had the stamina (such as good ol’ ‘Grimbsy-Doc’, it would appear!) to trawl this long thread may remember that not long after I started it one of my sisters (in her 50s) was diagnosed with a rare and horrible condition. It‘s called frontotemporal dementia and in her case it is almost certainly the variant of that condition known as ‘Pick’s disease’. The MRI scans show the progressively enlarging ‘black holes’ in the front and sides of her brain as the disease eats into her mind and body - but they won’t know for certain unless and until the autopsy.

 

She is still with us, just, but her condition is deteriorating rapidly and that ‘just’ isn’t going to last much longer. Could be another six months. Could be tomorrow.

 

My family which for most ’active’ puposes means my other sister (my twin) and I (my incapacitated sister didn’t have children, or a partner at the date of the disease striking) has been treated with abysmal, grossly stressful delay, incompetence and officious meddling from day one, as we have striven to sort things out for our severely ill releatiive.

 

We couldn’t get her GP for one moment sufficiently bothered to help us get her into hospital in the first place. We had to get her‘sectioned’. We had to fight to get a full diagnosis out of the NHS for miserable days-that-seemed like-weeks after she was admitted - even though, as it it is now abundantly clear from the records, they were absolutely certain what her condition was several days before the could be bothered to tell her familyanything about it.

 

In the first few weeks my sister still had suffiicient gumption left - and good on her (now she couldn’t even find the hospital door) - to ’appeal the section’. It wasn’t an appeal that could possibly be’ allowed’ - not even the wretched, ignorant, officious tribunal, which dealt with it could be that stupid. But when I attended to make sure that the facts were at least straight - social workers and doctors were getting them materially wrong - I was forbidden to take written notes, by the tribunal chair - and that was at a hearing when the relevant consultant was adducing detailed diagnostics, prognosis and medication factors about my sister to a roomful of strangers - details many of which he still had not taken the trouble to share with my family.

 

I have already commented here at CAG about the disgusting, insulting performance of the DWP and Atos, repeatedly corresponding with my sister’s doormat requiring someone in a dementia ward under section to attend ‘medicals'. The obtuse, obstructive lamentable response of nearly every bank, building society, tax or other governmental office ,involved has nigh exhausted my twin and me on occasion.

 

My sister has been ‘booted’ between three different hospitals and four different wards Some of her care has been disgraceful. I have had to threaten to turn up on doctors 'doorsteps, march them into the relevant office, and make them hand over the notes so one hospital knows what the previous one was or was not doing. The gross inability of the NHS to achieve joined-up thinking let alone continuity of care - even on matters as basic as sedation levels - has harmed my sister and she has also been harmed by other patients on her current ward.

 

My twin and I attend every care\planning meeting with the medical people and bureaucrats. We want to know about her health, comfort and care. They want to talk, mostly amongst themselves, about...money.

 

Yes, my poor sister’s nursing requirement will continue to be high until her death. So what. She worked for thirty-five yeas extremely hard and, eventually, successfully, building up her own business as a civil engineer. She has probably paid more in tax and national insurance than many of us will ever be fortunate enough to earn. So why the insulting angst about care costs at ‘care meetings’…..?

 

Because much as they would like to - and they are continually trying to find new angles - they can’t yet find a legal avenue to claw back cost of care from the assets she will never enjoy again, that's why.

 

In one of life’s bitter ironies we have discovered that very shortly before she was sectioned she had been sent the deeds to her house. She had achieved what all too few of us are able to. She had quietly ‘weathered’ a 25 year repayment mortgage, and, starting with nothing, through diligent hard work, earned her own 3 bed semi for her retirement. She will never see it again. The local authority and health trusts are itching to find a way to make us sell it and give the proceeds to them as ‘dementia tax’. But in the particular circumstances of my sister’s case, it seems that parliament has not given them suffiicient power. It makes them fretful and that in turn ‘stresses ‘ my sister’s healthcare .The rules could change tomorrow, but at the moment it just makes them spiteful.

 

Both my parents, of very advanced years as you may well imagine, are ‘destroyed’ by what has been going on. My father has cancer and we learned from tests last week that the ‘remission’ is over. It’s back and big time. We fear it has spread to his lungs. I don’t think he has the strength to fight it any more, and frankly, I don’t think he wants to. My mother is in a nursing home after a stroke last year but is desperate to keep visiting her daughter in hospital. I take her every week, though the effort truly threatens what is left of her own frail lhealth, The drive is about 25 minutes. Each time, she sobs all the way back to the nursing home, which treats her well (entirely at he rown expense), but which she loathes because of the loss of independence it represents, and always will. It has become clear she won’t ever be strong enough to leave it. I am trying to manage her house and affairs as well now.

 

I fear for my twin’s health and stress levels in all this. I would be sunk without her, although her and my children (all young adults now) do their best to ‘rally round.’ My own doctors are, as they say, ‘screaming at me’, about my own ‘health and stress levels’. I don’t allow them to take my blood pressure any more. It just leads to ‘scenes.’

 

But the number one prize for obscene bahviour in all this misery and stress must go to the Court of Protection. You have to go through that wretched body to get the relevant ‘orders’ to deal with an incapacitated persons affairs. We now refer to it as the Court of Additional Harm. For ignorance, delay, obstruction, financial illiteracy and impertinence, they truly take the biscuit. It is that court which has turned a famliy tragedy into a complete and enduring nightmare for which we will never forgive their disgusting incompetence.and deceit. And it is a particular, disgraceful, manoeuvre of theirs last week - some of which I recorded - that I want to share with you in my next post. If you have been, thanks for listening.

[Nystagmite]

What a sad situation for all involved.

[honeybee13]

Hello again nolegion. I'm really sorry it's so hard for you. Please try to stay strong, you've done so well thus far.

 

And we're here for you if you need us. I wish you and your family well.

 

HB x

[nolegion]

Thanks guys.

 

My dear sister - bullied into the grave (part 2)

 

I hope this post will make it clear why much of the detail of my last one is relevant to a subject most of don’t think about any more than we have to. Making a Will.

 

The statistics still show, I believe, that more than 60% of people in this country die ‘intestate’, and that can result in fierce delay and legal costs - and incur avoidable tax. But my sister was too shrewd a woman not to have made a Will. Immensely logical as well as a doting and treasured aunt she would actually have enjoyed the process. But she was suffering from this wretched disease for many, many months before we all fully appreciated what was going on, and by the time she was admitted to hospital her private financial affairs and paperwork were, frankly, in chaos, we have discovered.

 

As my twin and I started the gloomy, grimy business of clearing her house and trying to make a start on getting a picture of herfinances, we encountered some big ‘gaps in the record’. I now think that in a moment of distraction she must have actually accidentally thrown a bunch of ‘important stuff ‘ away, including perhaps, her Will.

 

In any event, it was scarcely our immediate priority, and we couldn’t be sure that she hadn’t lodged it with some bank etc which we couldn't interrogate until we had the right order from the Court of Additional Harm. We didn’t get that for six months after we applied for it, and I didn’t finally have a sealed copy order in my hands until November last year . That delay itself caused a number of horrendous complications and tax penalties, but we hit the ground runnning, all the same - and still found no Will.

 

The complication here is that the legal rules on intestacy are not as many people assume. On an intestacy without children or spouse, in the first instance, assets go ‘up’ to any surviving parents not ‘sideways’ to siblings or ‘down’ to eg nephews and nieces. My parents are adamant they don’t want that to happen. We all know what sister’s Will would have said. And the ‘aggregation of estates’ could generate a grotesque tax bill.

 

Now we could wait until my sister is no longer with us and provided you get on with it quickly and all relevant parties are happy to sign up to it, as they would be, you can execute what is a called a deed of variation or family arrangement, effectively to reproduce what the Will would have said. But that process itself can take a lot of time (months for the grant of letters of aministration themselves) and legal expense to sort out, exactly at a time when that is the last thing my parents will want to be dealing with - in their grief, let alone in their own parlous states of health.(If they both die first, which is not impossible, my twin and I can sort thatout because we will be the only beneficiaries - but it will still take extra time, money and stress.)

 

There is another option. A family member - in this case nolegion, with the complete written consent and blessing of all relevant family members - can apply to court to have what is called a ‘statutory will’ approved. Basically we get the court to rubber stamp what we all know my sister would have wished. But the relevant court for this purpose is the Court of Additional Harm. I applied before Christmas and did not hear back from the court (via the Official Solictor’s Office) until last week. We nearly lost my sister in a sudden downturn in her health during the delay.

 

So what do we now learn? The Official Solictor is going to object to the terms of the Will despite the unanimous views of my sister’s family which means we will have to go through a contested court hearing at fantastic expense, delay and further stress. Both my parents, despite the horrible difficulties for them I described in part 1, want a chance to speak to the judge. They are outraged by what has happened: against their own express wishes and their own knowledge of their daughter.

 

So why is the ‘Officious Solicitor’ (which in this case is just the Court of Additional Harm wearing another hat) going to object? Well that ‘s about the local authority’s and health trusts’ not being provided by statute with the power to claw back cost of care before death in this particular case (as I explained in part 1). With only a very few omissions and substitutions to protect my family’s privacy, I will now quote directly from the officious solictor’s letter dated 23rd May:-

 

“ I note from the witness statement that since [sister] was admitted to hospitial lin [month] 2010, her care has been fully funded…This has allowed [sister’s] assets to be maintained.

 

In pre MCA [NB = MentalCapcaity Act] 2005, the Court was looking to make a substituted judgement on behalf on a person’s behalf.. The Court confirmed that in constructing this judgement on behalf of a person where there is little or no material relatingt o the decision, the person should be considered to be acting in accordance with contemporary standards of morality. This led the Court to conclude that recognition should be made for the state funding…by way of significant gifts to charities.

 

The Official Solitor would suggest that this aproach is relevant in considering [sister’s] beliefs and values under s4(6)(b) MCA2005, and therefore it can be seen to be in her best interests to make more signinicant gift to charitiest han the [four figures] [the family] is proposing. TheOfficial Solicitor would suggest that a gift to a charity of [a six figure sum - which,NB, exceeds the estimated current valueof her house as referred to in part1] should be given to charity. “

 

And the rest of the communication goes on gleefully to detail just how many thousands of pounds it will cost me and\or my sister if fight them in court, even if I win. Blackmail is such fun, isn't it?.

 

We are most certainly going to fight - and the one thing we can be sure of is that the Court of Protection will not win. When I gave the relevant clerk a slice of my views on the telephone in a style which I would think she will not forget in a hurry, and told her I was recording each part of the phone call for future use, I was pleased to note more than one sharp intake of breath. Good. I have hardly flaming started.

 

We will seek costs against them and appeal, even if the only thing that goes against us is the order for costs itself. We will seek leave to appeal from them - which they will refuse - and I will then have to petition the Court of Appeal directly. During that grossly protracted and stressful process, my sister will die - probably still intestate, courtesy of the Court of Additional Harm proceeding in the name of‘modern morality’

 

We will seek press admission to each and every hearing, which we will inist on having in person, not ‘over the phone'. The stress on my parents in getting to hearings 200 miles away in London at their ‘crumbling age’ will be enormous, But they insist they will do nothing less. If they are still with us they will be heard.

 

Following my sister’s death during this time, we will in any event give every detail to the press, in my sister’s memory. That would certainly be in her ‘best interests’. She is or was a great ‘fighter’ (imagine being a very junior female civil engineer on building sites in the late seventies\ early eighties!) and if the roles were reversed she would do nothing less for me. And that public testimionial will certainly represent some ‘modern morality’. The Court of Additional Harm was not to know of the great personal friendhip which existed between my sister and a family with splendid media connections; they will find out soon enough.

 

Nothing further than what we have already proposed will ever go to 'charity'. (What’s left of her assets after legal costs will reach her nephews and nieces, as she would wish).My sister loathed the way the NHS is run almost as much as I do. Her last ‘perseverational mantra’ was ‘I hate it here, I hate it here’. Now, she is mostly silent. We will speak for her.

 

All her\my family are with me all the way.

 

What about here?

 

The wretched little clerk who sent us that insulting communication last week provided the relevant email address. It’s:

 

[email protected]

 

If you have had the time to follow this long and winding tale and have any views, it would be perfectly legal to drop her a line. Thanks.

 

nl.

Edited May 30, 2011 by nolegion

[whitecraig_wizard]

Dear Nolegion, My heart and thoughts are with you and your family, the lack of care, compassion, thoughtfulness and consideration that you have to endure to protect someone you love and care for is sadly increasing day by day.We are all entitled to be treated with dignity and respect, the last thing that any of us need in a difficult and troubling time is the hand of incompetence.I hope that all who do take the time to read this thread, give consideration to making a will and also a Power of attorney, none know what the future brings, these at least will bring a little peace and security to your own wishes whatever they may be.best wishes,W_W

[Sarahrookley]

This saga has made me so terribly angry and sad for you and your family - and I shall indeed send an e-mail. Most of us become so weary and cowed by the labyrinths woven by beauocrats with no empathy or interest in the real people involved in a situation like this, that they just roll over and give up. Please fight on, and I hope so much that your voice, on behalf of your dear sister, will now be heard. I have enormous respect for your determination and the love that you and your twin have for your sister, and hope that you will have the strength to continue on her behalf. We are with you in spirit.

[transistor]

What a dreadful story. I am so sorry for you all. Would it be appropriate for me to ask just a couple of questions? What, please, are 'contemporary standards of morality'? Exactly? Who and when visited your sister from the Official Solicitor's office and how did this person establish what her 'beliefs and values' are? Exactly? And finally, how can any of this possibly be in 'her best interests'? Exactly?

 

I sincerely hope that followers of this thread do take up NoLegion's cause and let the Official Solicitor's office know their views.

 

I understand that the Care Quality Commission is to undergo a thorough investigation following last night's programme. Perhaps it is time the same thing happened to the Office of the Public Guardian, the Court of Protection and the Official Solicitor.

[nolegion]

Just to say thank you for all kind comments, support,actions and highly relevant questions.

I’m kinda under pressure from all this just at the mo’ and Iseem to be one of the very few people who hasn’t caught up with the detail ofbroadcast news over past 24hrs or so, which all sounds highly relevant tothis thread. Recorded medical mistreatment v. the vulnerable? Fill me in. I’llbe back. Need sleep.

nl.

[nolegion]

It’s a tad ‘OTT’ but nevertheless, in keeping with the newly-established tradition of dropping a bit of verse into this thread on occasion, here are some lines from Love’s Labours Lost, which keep recurring to me just now:

 

Rosaline: -

 

You shall this twelve month term from day to day

 

Visit the speechless sick, and still converse

 

With groaning wretches; and your task shall be

 

With all the fierce endeavour of your wit

 

To enforce the pained impotent to smile.

 

 

Berowne:-

 

To move wild laughter in the throat of death?

 

It cannot be; it is impossible:

 

Mirth cannot move a soul in agony.

…………………………………….

 

A twelvemonth! well, befall what will befall,

 

I’ll jest a twlevemonth in an hospital.

Edited June 5, 2011 by nolegion

[sophiegreece]

Dear nolegion,

- - - It seems that no Greek priest coming at you with their recently purchased ipad (to use at christenings instead of the traditional, and oh, so passe, printed evangelical word in the case that hit the press last week) could distract you from the taunts of dark red tape practices.- - -

I've just read through 204 and 207 and was duly enraged. I then went on to read the first page and recognised you in it, kicking against the right pricks.

How brave of you to bring your personal ordeal to the attention of other tormented souls but also how fortunate that out of such blatant malpractice (if that's the right word - excuse the awkward use of your beautiful language) some good may come.

If Greek doctors were audio-recorded every time they openly insult a patient and every time they, ruthlessly yet nonchalantly, demand, in no uncertain terms, a few thousand euros in a knee-crooking envelope (the "fakelaki" of some Clevedon late night) half an hour before an operation of a member of one's family, or else they won't let the anaesthetist go near the patient, we'd have long ago sent out a commision for more crates of digital audio-recorders and more heads ("If you head and hang all that offend that way, you'll be glad to send a commision for more heads.", or words to that effect. Isn't that Measure for Measure?)

[nolegion]

There speaks a Thracian in fluent Delphic.

 

Hi, SophieG. Very good to hear from you again, and thank you for joining in the misery. It’s enlightening to have an international element in this thread.

 

For any viewers a beat or two behind Sophie’s pace, I might perhaps further explain that ‘fakelaki’ (four syllables) are apparently a universal phonemenon in Attic climes and translate as little brown envelopes full of cash. I have been given to understand that the Greek economy, or what’s left of it, has been oiled by these for years.

 

Malpractice is exactly the right word SophieG, and trust a Greek to know more Shakespeare than many Brits.

 

Truly, thank you very much for your support.

Edited June 7, 2011 by nolegion

[nolegion]

I have now had an opportunity to catch up with the ‘last night's news’ I am sure ‘transistor’ was referring to on the first of this month. It was the Panorama undercover investigation into a ‘care home’ for vulnerable adults in Winterbourne, Bristol. Devasating, and highly relevant to this thread in more ways than one.The hour’s broadcast can be viewed via this link (I hope), at least for the next 12 months:-

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011pwt6

[nolegion]

I learned today that I have very good reason to believe that this website and support from viewers\contibutors to this thread have been instrumental in a complete and irrevocable backdown by the party I dsecribed as ‘The Officious Solicitor’ in relation to my hapless, incapacitated sister a few posts ago.

 

We are not ‘out of the woods’ yet: judicial consideration is still required, and I must resist the temptation to jeopardise that by premature assumptions at this stage.

 

Nevertheless, I could not sleep tonight without first having said thank you again to those who have shared this cantankerous old whatsit’s line of thought, and helped.

 

I just wish I could explain it all to my dear sister. She would have been the first to stand and fight .

 

nl.

[honeybee13]

Well done, nl, I'm really pleased for you and await further developments. I hope you manage to make a difference, it would be a great accolade for you and for CAG.

 

I sincerely hope you sleep well and that justice is done.

 

My best, HB

[Sarahrookley]

I learned today that I have very good reason to believe that this website and support from viewers\contibutors to this thread have been instrumental in a complete and irrevocable backdown by the party I dsecribed as ‘The Officious Solicitor’ in relation to my hapless, incapacitated sister a few posts ago.

 

We are not ‘out of the woods’ yet: judicial consideration is still required, and I must resist the temptation to jeopardise that by premature assumptions at this stage.

 

Nevertheless, I could not sleep tonight without first having said thank you again to those who have shared this cantankerous old whatsit’s line of thought, and helped.

 

I just wish I could explain it all to my dear sister. She would have been the first to stand and fight .

 

nl.

 

I shall be watching this space with great interest, and really hope that our little voices may have made a difference. I only wish that your sister were able to applaud your efforts, but I know she would be proud. Let us hope that the woods will thin out as they should.

[transistor]

Delighted to hear that you have been so successful. My thoughts are with you and your family.

[nolegion]

Thanks for all kind comments and support, HB,SR and TR Truly, much appreciated.

 

The nearer to the ‘court door’ we get, the more careful I have to be as regards breaching any confidentiality requirements. The Court of Additional Harm is a very ‘secretive’ court and there may well be significant restrictions on what I can say in due course, at least for a little while.

 

But whatever I can safely and legally say, I will say here in this thread first, on account of the help this site has given me.

[My Turn]

the person should be considered to be acting in accordance with contemporary standards of morality. This led the Court to conclude that recognition should be made for the state funding…by way of significant gifts to charities. ..... The Official Solitor would suggest that this aproach is relevant in considering [sister’s] beliefs and values ..... and therefore it can be seen to be in her best interests to make more significant gift to charities than the [four figures] [the family] is proposing. The Official Solicitor would suggest that a gift to a charity of [a six figure sum - which, NB, exceeds the estimated current value of her house as referred to in part1] should be given to charity.

 

Nolegion, I read your two recent posts in this thread ("My dear sister - bullied into the grave") and am shocked to see the nonsense proposed by the Official Solicitor's Office. Their suggestion of a six figure sum is wholly out of keeping with any accepted sense of proportionality.

 

I suspect one may find that Judith Bartram, the clerk named as dealing with your sister's case in the Official Solicitor's Office, made the decision in a moment during which she trusted more to inspiration than the letter of the law. No doubt her solution was proposed to her superiors on a particularly busy day during which which they rubber stamped the suggestion without close inspection and after that it got forwarded to you. I imagine that unless they soon correct this rather glaring error of judgement, they may start to dig in to defend what is likely to turn out to be an embarrassing position for them.

 

The whole thing has a Kafka-like air about it. The degree of unfairness in your case is the sort of thing the national press, and sometimes the broadcast media too, have been known to take a lively interest in.

 

It would be interesting if one could see the internal memos and emails passed within the Official Solicitor's Office regarding this decision. I wonder if you can apply for personal data about your sister held by the Official Solicitor's Office under the Data Protection Act as it might give some insight on how such a decision came to be made. Although it may be argued that the decision was a team decision, it may be the case that those persons advising the team had a personal professional duty of care to make appropriate and correct recommendations.

 

Perhaps you could make a counter-proposal to the officials and hope they look at the merits of your position from a fresh perspective.

 

-My Turn

Edited June 21, 2011 by My Turn

[nolegion]

Thanks, My Turn. I am absolutely clear that the Official Solicitor’s Office has in no way proceeded in my sister’s best interests inthis matter and while they have been put firmly on the back foot at this stage, I must confess I had not thought of using the DPA in this particular instance.

 

It would be difficult to assert the legal privilege exemption of the DPA against my sister herself, and so unless there are further statutory exemptions buried in eg amendments to the Senior Courts Act or other legislation usually regarded as obscure, I wonder if in due course...

[fred2009cam]

Amazed to see that this thread is still going, more than a year and exactly 200 posts since I last looked. If audio-recording consultations with NHS doctors had still been the subject under discussion, I doubt if I would have wanted to make any further contribution; however, as the thread has morphed out of all recognition, I should just like nolegion to know that I am very much on his side in his current predicament. To deal effectively with a situation like this, you need the uncompromising aggression of a rottweiler and the cussed tenacity of a pitbull terrier, so I think we can all be confident that he will eventually achieve a satisfactory outcome.

[nolegion]

Thanks fredcam. They say, ‘It’s dogged as does it.’

 

In our case, though, we have additionally to recognise that Cerberus thinks the same, and I greatly fear that by the time this matter is anywhere near properly attended to, it will simply be too late.

Edited June 28, 2011 by nolegion

[nolegion]

If my topic is to continue, it’s time I tried to ‘re-morph’ it back towards the thread title, I think. But, truly, thank you very much indeed to those who online and off it have offered their support and advice about my sister’s case.

 

The thread is about recording. And recording for any number of reasons, evidence being one of them, and the way in which all too often we need recordings to preserve the entitlements for which we pay.

 

Via my sister’s case (still!) here’s an example from my post this morning. It relates to a battle now over a year long with the DWP about my sister’s entitlements:

 

“ Dear [nolegion],

 

The performance of our agents is constantly being reviewed,consisting of team leaders listening to [the recordings of] calls…your recent telephone call …was found to be below the expected standard…

 

…measures are in place to resolve this unacceptable level of customer service and the agent concerned has been spoken to and action taken.”

 

The point here is not that the DWP records calls but that the recording they listened to confirmed I did as well.

 

It’s only a word-processed fob - off, but I do not believe for one moment we would have got even that acknowledgment had they not realised the disgraceful way I was treated in the telephone call in question was fully evidenced in my own hands.

 

This is only supplementary detail, though. The central battle with the DWP was won a while back on a fully recorded basis.

 

The parliamentary Health Committee produced it’s damp squib of a report into complaints and litigation vs the NHS on Monday this week. Time for a re-read.

Edited June 30, 2011 by nolegion