Help with HSBC please

[Chiddock]

Hello

 

I'll try to make this brief. In 2009 my partner was forced to declare bankrupt because of the decline in his business. HSBC immediately closed my credit card and demanded full repayment. This is despite the fact it had been open 6 years, never missed a payment etc. I have asked a number of times for a copy of the agreement and never recieved it. Unfortunately I didn't, at this time make the request in writing, however I do have a letter from HSBC confirming they are requesting this is sent to me. This letter is dated September 2009 and still I have recieved nothing.

 

Also, in August 2008 we asked for our joint personal account to be put into his sole name and I opened up my own account with another bank. The reason for this is HSBC took £600 of my salary to pay a bill on my partners business account. We got that paid back as they did not have the right of offset in this case. HSBC are now claiming they didn't close the account and want me to pay off his overdraft. All we have is the email to the relationship manager requesting this and him agreeing to take over all commitments. We moved some of the direct debits to my new account and I've been using it since it was opened.

 

And finally, there was a joint flexi loan - which we originally thought was in my name only but seemingly isn't. Again HSBC demanded immediate payment.

 

I'm afraid I've buried my head in the sand rather and hoped it would all go away, but I have to face the fact that it needs sorting. Please don't judge me on that, I suffer depression and anxiety and am housebound unless a family member goes outside with me, I have also only just got the all clear after having a tumour removed last year.

 

Today I've recieved a letter from Central Debt Recovery Unit threatening a doorstep visit over the credit card debt. I am in a real state now and need your help as to what to do. I want to sort all these out.

 

I've printed off the CCA letter so I have a formal record of requesting this.

 

Please can I ask for your help to see me through sorting this out.

 

Thank you

[comebackjimmy]

Hi

 

First of all, do not worry about the letter from Central Debt Recovery. This is a standard debt collection threatogram. They are most unlikely to visit but if they do they have no rights to do anything. If by any chance they do show up refuse to talk to them and send them away.

 

All future comms should be written only. no phone calls. Never call them and if they call you immediately put the phone down without saying another word. You are under no obligation to talk to them.

 

Write to them only when it will advance your case. Writing allows you time to consider your position, get advice, especially from here, and generate a paper trail, which as you have already discovered, can be important.

 

I am sure some others will be on here shortly to give you more help.

 

Good luck.

[comebackjimmy]

OK, had a chance to think about your thread and my first thoughts are as follows but wait a while to see what other CAGers have to say:

 

1. Credit Card

 

If this credit card was yours alone and not a joint card they have no reason to cancel it as such, but none the less I would expect their T&C's to have a clause that says they can cancel it. If so, I would further expect that you would have a right to some time to repay the balance. Somebody else will likely come on here and provide chapter and verse on what is reasonable. The full amount certainly is not reasonable. How much is it by the way?

 

Can I suggest you make a copy of the letter they sent canceling the card, remove your personal details and post it up so we can see what it says. Or failing that, was a reason given?

 

Since they are looking for any and all means of protecting their interests you could do the same. Notwithstanding what has gone before you could send the template letter asking them for a copy of your agreement. Send it recorded delivery (with a £1 PO) WITHOUT SIGNING and you then have the process properly started. If after the 12+2 days have elapsed and they have not supplied you with the agreement then you can lawfully withhold any payments until they do.

 

2. Joint Account

 

You could send them a SAR. Don't sign it and send £10 PO. Specifically request copies of all emails sent to and from the relationship manager. Presuming they comply with the request this exercise may reveal some useful dates and comments on their customer care files, and may focus their attention on your case and make them realize you are not going to be pushed around.

 

Check HSBC's complaints procedure and write a letter of complaint. First of all deny any liability for the debt. Use straightforward language telling them the story with time and dates in such a way that a third party could also read it and understand what happened. The third party will be the banking ombudsman who likes to see letters in this format and you can send a copy to him if you do not receive a satisfactory response.

 

Stand firm as you have a copy of the email. If it were ever to come to court they would have to explain why they think you are liable, not the other way around.

 

3. Flexiloan

 

I did not know what a flexiloan was before I checked out this site:

 

FlexiLoan: Flexible personal borrowing | HSBC Bank UK

 

and I am not that much wiser now! However, I presume it is an unsecured loan and if so is in all likelihood governed by one or other of the Consumer Credit Acts depending upon what the date was you took it out.

 

Assuming I am right then once again you can send them a request for a copy of the loan agreement to see if it is enforceable (what date was it taken out?) and withhold payment after 12+2 days until such time as they provide you with a copy. (Usual rules: Recorded delivery, £1 PO and don't sign but if it is a joint loan then both your names should be on the request).

 

They are pushing you hard and doing all they can to protect their interests without any thought of your own circumstances. It amounts to a declaration of financial war. Start fighting!

[Chiddock]

Thanks for your help. Letters have now been printed (signed but 2 lines put through the signature as advised on another thread) and will be sent Monday

[Castlebest]

Hiya Chiddock and welcome to the HSBC forum

 

As comebackjimmy says dont worry about Central Debt Recovery, they arnt even a proper debt collection agency, just HSBC using a different letter head . Heres a letter I wrote to Metroploitan Collections a while ago (who are just another HSBC letter head) slightly different but it should give you somne ideas of the tone and where you should be going

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1311983.html

 

Were you a named executive (director, secretary etc) of your husbands business? or are the bank just trying to pressurise you because your the closest relative?

 

The bank cannot mix business and personal banking matters which is why you got a refund of the "set off" from the joint account.

 

The credit card is classed as a loan however and the bank can request anyone pays any loan back when they like and give you 28 days to do it but again dont panic because without loan agreement they cannot enforce the loan (make you pay it back).

 

I would send a full SAR to the bank requesting everything they have in your name, letters, agreements, statemets... everything for all accounts credit cards and loans.. you can do this with one SAR. Aim to put as much in dispute as you can

 

pete

[comebackjimmy]

I would agree with Castlebest's post and add that even if they find they can lawfully demand the money back within 28 days the reality is you wont have it.

 

So at that point do an income and expenditure sheet (for yourself, not for anyone else) and from that determine what you can reasonably afford to pay back and offer them that. They might come back and say it is not acceptable but only you can determine what you can afford and that is what you can stick to, (though I am probably well jumping the gun here!).

[Chiddock]

Hi - I'm not well at moment and was at hospital yesterday so not had chance to send the SAR yet. Is this going to be acceptable? It's taken from a number of SAR's I found on here and merged, I hope to suit my circumstances. As soon as I get the okay from you guys. it'll be off to Canada Square.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and any related / other accounts

 

Please supply me with All my personal data you hold including a complete list of transactions and charges (or alternatively a set of statements) relating to my account history with your organisation. I also require a complete breakdown of each Late Payment fee and Over Limit fee charged to this account, or any similar related charges. The complete breakdown of each charge must contain the following:

 

Hourly rate of each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees / charges. The time each member of staff spent on the administration of the fees/charges. Details of the work carried out and completed by each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees/charges. Total cost of the paper, envelopes, ink, and postage of each automated and manually written letter relevant to the issuing of the fees/charges, and any other costs incurred in each fee/charge including other employee’s involvement, their hourly rate, time spent on the involvement, and what their involvement consisted of.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

 

Furthermore please provide me with a copy of my contracts with you, and a copy of my original terms and conditions. I make this request under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, I am entitled to receive a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account on request . I enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I understand a copy of any credit agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

I further understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account under these sections of the Act.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Please note that the Postal orders I have supplied are NOT to be applied to any alleged debt but used only for purposes supplied.

 

The data I require includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

1. The original signed, executed credit agreements and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the account / credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10 for the Subject Access Request and £1 for the CCA request.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Chiddock
added info

[comebackjimmy]

If it was me I would do two separate letters, one for the SAR and one for the CCA request and separately send them by recorded delivery. The reasons are:

 

1. They may go to separate people/departments for action and if one complies and the other does not you do not necessarily want them to be entwined when you challenge them. (They could say they have complied when in fact they have only complied with one or the other).

 

2. Almost the same reason as 1. but by sending separate letters you have separate paper traces for each request.

 

I also think the following you put;

 

Hourly rate of each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees / charges. The time each member of staff spent on the administration of the fees/charges. Details of the work carried out and completed by each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees/charges. Total cost of the paper, envelopes, ink, and postage of each automated and manually written letter relevant to the issuing of the fees/charges, and any other costs incurred in each fee/charge including other employee’s involvement, their hourly rate, time spent on the involvement, and what their involvement consisted of.

 

might be exceeding what the Data Protection Act requires of the bank. As I understand it the Data Protection Act requires the bank to provide you with information stored electronically that it holds about you. The above would probably not apply to your request and if you include it then it might damage your credibility. The above I think may come later if you look to challenge charges. For this purpose you are only asking for personal data.

 

But see what others say.

[Chiddock]

Letters amended and sent SAR and CCA under seperate cover to HSBC. Do I need to inform DG, MCS or Central Debt Recovery Unit and if so, what do I write to them please?

 

Many thanks for your help so far and I'll update on the replies when I get them.

[Castlebest]

Hiya Chiddock well done, I agree with Jimmy, keep the SAR and CCA separate .

 

DG solicitors, Metro and CDRU are effectivly departments within the HSBC group using the same computer system so I would say no you dont need to let them know... they will find out soon enough .

 

pete

[Chiddock]

I checked Royal Mail tracking and one letter has been signed for on 1st March and other one is still in Royal Mails system. Unfortunately I have no way of knowing which is for the CCA and which is the SAR as I didn't mark them

 

Will keep checking website and hope it's delivered.

[comebackjimmy]

Great. Keep posting with developments.

[Chiddock]

Today I recieved a letter from Central Debt Recovery Unit saying they will be calling on my next Tuesday between 8am and 9pm.

 

Can I stop them doing this? I don't open my door or curtains anyway when I'm in the house on my own due to my anxiety.

[comebackjimmy]

Hi

 

I have had loads of letters like this and no one has ever turned up, though that does not mean that they wont, but consider this;

 

They have to come from some office, hang around hoping you are in and have no powers at all, less than the postman in fact. They know that and with their time and petrol to be considered it is simply not business like.

 

I refer to my post 3 above. All communications are to be in writing only.

This is your right.

 

In the very unlikely event that someone turns up, you are completely within your rights to refuse to open the door, refuse to speak to them and tell them to go away. Legally they must.

 

However, if you are suffering from anxiety there are two things that may help;

 

Either get someone to stay with you that knows the situation and keep you company,

 

Or go out to someone during the period you think they may arrive.

 

However, it is most unlikely anyone will show up. This is just a nasty tactic to scare you. Don't let it.

[Chiddock]

Thanks for the reply. I can't go out as I have nowhere to go that I would feel safe - all family are at work. But I can keep the doors and windows locked and the curtains are always closed during the day anyway.

 

Still getting this for one of the letters I sent them. Seems odd that one has been delivered but not the other. And I don't know if it's the SAR or the CCA request that was recieved

 

Item AG********GB was posted at *********** on 25/02/10 and is being progressed through our network for delivery

[johnnymitch]

Today I recieved a letter from Central Debt Recovery Unit saying they will be calling on my next Tuesday between 8am and 9pm.

 

Can I stop them doing this? I don't open my door or curtains anyway when I'm in the house on my own due to my anxiety.

 

 

Unless they have a Court Order they are not allowed to call without your express permission Chiddock ...

 

This letter (courtesy of Cerberus) should put them in their place ........

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/186927-unwanted-callers.html#post2011044

 

 

don't take any non-sense from them and if necessary call the police ....

[Chiddock]

Thank you for that - letter sent today I addressed it to Central Debt Recovery AKA Metropolitan Collection AKA DG Solicitors, all part of HSBC

 

Was that a bit cheeky

[johnnymitch]

Hee Hee! not really ..... it let's them know that you know who they really are ..........

[Chiddock]

The letter that I sent to HSBC is still showing as not delivered. I called Royal Mail and they say it was delivered on 1st March, but the track and trace website still say it is being 'progressed through their network'. Do I continue with the 12 working days for reciept of CCA?

 

Hoping tomorrow is quiet and I don't get unwelcome visitors, but my son is here if they do turn up.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Chiddock
awful spelling!!

[johnnymitch]

That's good if you've got your son with you chiddock, it'll curb their exuberance if they do turn up , which I doubt ......I think it was a scare tactic .... they are the pits !

 

However , if they do , just refuse them entry if they haven't got a court order (which they can't have or you'd have known about it ! ) . And if they get shirty , call the police and have them evicted from your property . ..... keep us posted , this will help others in your position Chiddock .... thanks ..... and above all , try not to worry ....

[johnnymitch]

Sorry , chiddock , I didn't answer your first question ...... the lawsays you can assume receipt after 2 days for First Class Mail ..... so yes .... keep to your 12 +2 for your CCA.....

[Chiddock]

Thank you so much, I've decided I'm not even going to hide in the house. It's been such lovely weather that I've been working on my vegetable beds in the back garden so I'm carrying that on tomorrow. Son will be with me and I can always go inside if a stranger does turn up.

 

So from your calculations Johnnymitch I should have a reply to my CCA request by 17th March at latest (request sent for both CCA and SAR on 25th Feb)

[johnnymitch]

That's a bit generous Chiddock ...... I'd have said 11th March is 12+2 from the 25th Feb .....

 

And of course they've got 40 days for your SAR......

 

But whatever , you get out in the sunshine and forget about them ....I'd say working in your vegetable beds is good practice for repelling pests .... LOL !

[Chiddock]

Oh what am I like! It's late, that's my excuse!!

 

no pests this time of year - this is the time to work in the manure.....good practice for dealing with cr*p

 

ETA - are you sure? I thought it was 12 work days?

[johnnymitch]

Not working days Chiddock , 12+2 days is all the Data Protection Act says ....

 

So, be ready with the manure .........