Court summons for travelling first class

[partybonkers]

Hi all

 

This is long shot, I was travelling from Redhill to Purley by southern trains,

I got on at Redhill and sat in first class by mistake, the train moved off and we had not go even got to the next station and a ticket inspector came along, It was one that travels from train to train not one that stays on the same train (if that makes any difference). I showed my ticket and it was not a 1st class ticket, I explained that i did not realise I was in first class and offered to move, she would not have it and said i would have to pay a penelty, I refused as i had a monthly ticket and it was a honest mistake, so she filled out the penalty would not let me move out of the seat and got off with me at Purley my destination as she had not finished writing the ticket, I signed it and went on my way,

I have now got a court summons for the 25th November saying that i was travelling in the wrong seat from Edenbridge to Purley, now I began my journey in Edenbridge but have to change at Redhill to get to Purley.

I offered to move shortly after leaving Redhill but she made me stay in the seat to Purley where she got off the train with me.

In the grand scheme of things does this matter? and should I just plead guilty have the hearing heard in my abcense and pay what ever fine is laid on me.

It just seems unfair I had a monthly ticket was sitting in first class for a matter of 5 mins and now they want me to go court and are asking for £105 in costs even if i do plead guilty.

Any Ideas would be appreciated. (sorry about the length)

Thanks

[Old-CodJA]

Hi all

 

This is long shot, I was travelling from Redhill to Purley by southern trains,

I got on at Redhill and sat in first class by mistake, the train moved off and we had not go even got to the next station and a ticket inspector came along, It was one that travels from train to train not one that stays on the same train (if that makes any difference). I showed my ticket and it was not a 1st class ticket, I explained that i did not realise I was in first class and offered to move, she would not have it and said i would have to pay a penelty, I refused as i had a monthly ticket and it was a honest mistake, so she filled out the penalty would not let me move out of the seat and got off with me at Purley my destination as she had not finished writing the ticket, I signed it and went on my way,

I have now got a court summons for the 25th November saying that i was travelling in the wrong seat from Edenbridge to Purley, now I began my journey in Edenbridge but have to change at Redhill to get to Purley.

I offered to move shortly after leaving Redhill but she made me stay in the seat to Purley where she got off the train with me.

In the grand scheme of things does this matter? and should I just plead guilty have the hearing heard in my abcense and pay what ever fine is laid on me.

It just seems unfair I had a monthly ticket was sitting in first class for a matter of 5 mins and now they want me to go court and are asking for £105 in costs even if i do plead guilty.

Any Ideas would be appreciated. (sorry about the length)

Thanks

 

I regret that I cannot offer you much hope. Season ticket conditions are very clear on this particular subject as are the Conditions of Carriage and the Byelaws. A full First Class fare is due and chargeable. The refusal to pay the fare could have lead to an immediate prosecution report.

 

If this is what happened, I think the Inspector acted admirably in issuing a Penalty notice giving you an opportunity to appeal or pay the fare due.

 

These notices make clear that if it remained unpaid it would still result in further action.

 

Why did you ignore the penalty notice?

 

Many people complain there is too much signage about these days and I often think there is a bit of 'over-kill' where First Class is concerned. It's on doors, windows and even the seats themselves in older stock.

 

Having gone into First at Redhill, you were travelling to the first stop at Purley so there was no other journey to be charged for. The case of Gillingham (1881) makes that one very clear, the fare due is that for the class of accomodation occupied by the traveller at the time of the ticket check.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[partybonkers]

Hi thanks for your response,

I was issued with a penalty and was not offered the chance to pay the extra

fare if thats what you meant,

I do not think she acted admirably because she was quite rude through out

and threatened to confiscate my monthly ticket if i did not pay the penalty,I did not go into it on my previous post because it does not matter now.

On the summons it says I was travelling in first class from Edenbridge to Purley, which is false because I was in normal class from Edenbridge to Redhill where I changed trains, there are 3 stops between Redhill and Purley

and I was not let move out of first class by this lady.

I think discretion should be used when issuing these penaltys, but I know it what i think does that matter I guess I do not have a leg to stand on legally and should just plead guilty and pay what ever so I do not incur and extra court costs,

Also has anyone else been in this situation before and how much extra do they usually add on for court costs.

Thanks

[rebel11]

It generates income for them plain and simple. Did you deprive a First Class passenger of thier seat, 'No'. When the railways cause you to be late do they compensate you, 'No'. The Railways are going the same way as 'parking'.

[Old-CodJA]

It generates income for them plain and simple. Did you deprive a First Class passenger of thier seat, 'No'. When the railways cause you to be late do they compensate you, 'No'. The Railways are going the same way as 'parking'.

 

 

Oh dear, yet another emotive response with little thought for the facts.

 

It generates no extra income for the Rail Company.

 

The passenger is travelling in First Class so a First Class fare is due. He was asked to pay and refused.

 

The opportunity to appeal or pay later appears to have been given, but not taken up.

 

A summons is issued and a prosecutor paid to take the matter forward.

 

IF the court convicts, the traveller will be ordered to pay the fare that he should have paid in the first place.

No more, no less.

 

He may be fined. That money goes to the Court central funds not the rail company.

 

He may be ordered to pay all or only part of the costs incurred in bringing the case.

 

None of these costs would have been incurred if he had paid his correct fare for travelling in First class at the outset.

 

It actually costs the rail company to deal with these cases

Edited November 11, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[rebel11]

Sorry you disagree, thats my opinion and I stick by it, the railways are poorer for the way they treat their passengers.

[Old-CodJA]

I do not disagree that you have a right to hold the opinion that the railways are poorer for the way that they treat their customers, but that is not the same as claiming that asking travellers to pay their fare is ' a money making extra', which is what your earlier reaction stated.

 

Neither is that anything new, the legal precedent that established the principle is 130 years old.

 

Relate it to another purchase and if you pay for a Ford you should not expect to drive away in a Bentley.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[MilkTrayMan]

I side with Old-CodJA on this issue...

As a Seaon Ticket Holder + frequent rail traveller, the OP can hardly be said to be unaware of the differences between 1st + 2nd Class carriages/compartments on a route that is familiar to them.

IMHO the RPI acted with due diligence in this matter.

The OP should accept the fine on the chin, learn by it + move on.

[postggj]

i used to travel in a first class compartment if the train was full

 

when a ticket inspector came along, i just asked to be upgraded.

no probs

 

infact, it was a lot cheaper than through a ticket office

 

you should have just paid an upgrade fee

[rebel11]

I side with Old-CodJA on this issue...

 

As a Seaon Ticket Holder + frequent rail traveller, the OP can hardly be said to be unaware of the differences between 1st + 2nd Class carriages/compartments on a route that is familiar to them.

 

IMHO the RPI acted with due diligence in this matter.

 

The OP should accept the fine on the chin, learn by it + move on.

 

 

 

As you know Old-CodJA works for a Railway Company, you can side with whoever

you like it's free country. Thats how I view it. Yep Gillingham (1881), surely it should read (1991)? What utter twaddle, relying on a case over a century old.

[Old-CodJA]

As you know Old-CodJA works for a Railway Company, you can side with whoever

you like it's free country. Thats how I view it. Yep Gillingham (1881), surely it should read (1991)? What utter twaddle, relying on a case over a century old.

 

I make no apology for having worked in the rail industry for more than 30 years

 

As for the age of the legal ruling, your comment is a bit rich, as those who spout about a 'free country' rely on a ruling written at Runnymede in 1215

Edited November 11, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[timbo58]

I thought the test case was Regina V Makin 1947?

Anyhow: have to concur with OC, 1st class is pretty well signed also in every TOCS stock I've seen.

[andydd]

Wheras I have to agree that you shouldnt travel in a first class seat without a first class ticket, it is something that does happen, its not always immediately obvious, I recently travelled to London from Essex, I am used to the trains, and therefore know where the 1st class carriages are, in London I changed to another train company and did inadvertantly sit down briefly in the 1st class part before I realised, there were signs, but quite small and not obvious.

 

Unfortunatly we have reached a stage that anyone who is caught breaking a byelaw is assumed to be automatically guilty whereas as we all know, mistakes do happen, especially if you are someone who doesnt travel by train regularly.

 

I also have to disagree that the train companies make no money from Penalty Fares, they are priced at quite a bit more than the average fare therfore it is not unreasonable to assume that they create extra income, this has been discussed before and I believe it was something that the ex Mayor Ken pointed out when he was caught without a ticket.

 

Andy

[RPI]

Sorry you disagree, thats my opinion and I stick by it, the railways are poorer for the way they treat their passengers.

A hard line is taken by the TOC's because of the huge amount of people who take the p**s, how many times have I heard "I didn't have time to get a ticket bacause I was running late", despite the fact that I have observed them on the platform 20 mins before the train had arrived.

 

Each penalty fare costs the TOC a considerable amount to process and often recieves far less than the normal fare.

 

First class is quite often quite which is why people pay a considerable premium to travel first class, so they can escape the overcrowding etc, they pay for that priviledge.

 

As for sitting in first class when standard is full, that is wrong too, if you go to Tesco and they've run out of value bread, you don't pick up a finest loaf and expect to pay the same!

[partybonkers]

Clearly there is alot of people who work on the rail here.

The fact of the matter is, it is not alway immediatley obvious when you

get on the train that you are in first class when you are rushing on the train

trying to get a seat it can be missed as it was with me.

I buy my ticket every month and it is not something that has happened before, I was sitting in there for litterally 3 mins when i was pounced upon.

I would have noticed and moved, but was not given the chance.

I do not expect to be treated like a criminal for making a simple mistake.

These people go around with the badges and treat people like Cr*p, customers might I add, but certainly not treated like that, It's not in their interest to use the common sense they just like to give out as many penaltys as they can, I am pretty sure there is some targets they must meet or commision.

As I said a little common sense used would be go a long way, and I know you can say i should have used common sense when sitting down.

But we are all human and we can all make mistakes there just seems to be no room for human error here,

But there is lots of room for error when my train is late and cancelled and they come up with excuses like because there is no driver, Can i bring them to court for that and win I think not.

[rebel11]

Totally agree with you. If I arrived from a foreign country, would they make allowances for me if I had mistakenly taken a seat in First Class,

probably not. They talk about spotting the signs, what if I couldn't read the signs.

[rebel11]

You might aswell write to

Chris Burchell

Southern Trains

Go Ahead House

26-28 Addiscombe Road

Croydon

CR9 5GA

Edited November 12, 2009 by rebel11

[partybonkers]

Thanks for the address rebel11 but it was Southern trains, and it is now

in the hands of the Courts so do not think there is alot anyone can do,

They are pushing for £105 to cover their costs and if I try to fight it in court that will go up alot more. Its crazy all this for sitting in the wrong seat for 3 mins.

[rebel11]

Address corrected if you change your mind.

[RPI]

the point is, if the inspector hadn't checked your ticket then you would have sat there for the entire journey so the 3 minute thing is irrelevant.

 

Had you just paid the penalty fare then you would have avoided all this, and sometimes people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for the address rebel11 but it was Southern trains, and it is now

in the hands of the Courts so do not think there is alot anyone can do,

They are pushing for £105 to cover their costs and if I try to fight it in court that will go up alot more. Its crazy all this for sitting in the wrong seat for 3 mins.

 

Completely wrong.

 

If you genuinely feel that you were hard done by and that you did not commit any offence, then defend the charge by telling the Court so. In those circumstances, the correct course of action is to plead 'not guilty'

 

The claim for costs that has been advised is the amount that the TOC are asking the Court to award if you are convicted.

 

The thing that might increase substantially is any fine if you are found guilty having pleaded not guilty, but no-one who genuinely believes that they have done nothing wrong, should plead guilty for simple expediency.

 

I should add that it's not too late to try to resolve the matter. If you do not genuinely believe that you were in the right, you can always contact the prosecution office, accept that you owe a fare and offer to pay an administrative settlement to avoid a Court hearing, but that is a matter for you.

 

You have several choices:

 

You can either let this run it's course, plead guilty and accept the Court's decision or,

 

Plead not guilty and defend your actions in Court as you have done here or,

 

Contact the prosecutor and ask if you may be allowed to settle this without troubling the Court further. The TOC is not obliged to accept your offer, but may choose to do so.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[partybonkers]

old-coolja actually you are quite wrong I think I would have noticed

after a while and I would have moved, why should I pay such a large

penalty for such a simple mistake, I beleive they should spend more time

clamping down on people who travel without tickets rather than innocent people who always have tickets and make simple mistakes.

I've seen some of these guys not even issue tickets to people who do not even have a ticket to travel, there is no consistency in it at all.

You get the inspectors who stay dormant on one train who just want a easy

life so avoid any confrontation and let people off all the time, as it does not benefit them to issue any,

Then you get the inspectors that jump from train to train who are definatley

target driven or commission driven who give tickets to every one they can

for anything they can including breaking wind, system seems flawed to me.

[partybonkers]

Thank you for your advice I am still thinking what to do,

my heart tells me I want to fight it but my head tells me I should do what

ever i can to make it go away as easily and cheaply as possible,

so we will see I will decide this over the weekend as I know time is running out, at the end of the day i did sit in the wrong seat and there is nothing in the rules saying that inspectors have to use any type of common sense, so do not think I would win in court,

one of the reasons I came on this site is i was hoping some one might have been in a similar situation and had the charge over turned, but this not seem to be the case.

 

Thanks for every ones imput.

[Old-CodJA]

old-coolja actually you are quite wrong I think I would have noticed

after a while and I would have moved, why should I pay such a large

penalty for such a simple mistake, I beleive they should spend more time

clamping down on people who travel without tickets rather than innocent people who always have tickets and make simple mistakes.

I've seen some of these guys not even issue tickets to people who do not even have a ticket to travel, there is no consistency in it at all.

You get the inspectors who stay dormant on one train who just want a easy

life so avoid any confrontation and let people off all the time, as it does not benefit them to issue any,

Then you get the inspectors that jump from train to train who are definatley

target driven or commission driven who give tickets to every one they can

for anything they can including breaking wind, system seems flawed to me.

 

If I can help your thinking further in any way, it seems to me that you are generally very negative about all train travel. No-one pretends that the system or service is perfect, but often, far too many assumptions are made.

 

Yes, there are some lazy staff out there and I'd hope that all TOCs are still working toward weeding them out.

 

Yes, some staff are more concientous than others and that can occasionally lead to other people interpreting this as over-zealousnes just as it does in all walks of life

 

We often hear people complain 'I've seen these guys let people off and not issue tickets at all'. Occasionally, there is a very good reason for doing so, but the casual third party observer, who isn't in possession of all the facts wouldn't know that.

 

If you think people are always being let off, how do you know?

 

Just because you see and overhear all or part of a conversation and no money or card payment is made and no ticket is visibly issued, how do you know for certain that the traveller was not reported later? In the majority of such cases the Inspector will not be writing out a statement in view of all the passengers on a train, that will be done later from the brief contemporaneous notes recorded at the time.

 

In my experience, inspectors do not get commission on prosecution cases. When I was a BR RPI we never did, I don't know of any that do now and for what it's worth, that would be immoral in my view.

 

What's the difference between holding a standard class ticket and travelling in first class, thereby avoiding the correct fare and not buying a ticket to avoid any fare? None, they are both wrong.

 

As a season ticket holder you will know that there are very strict rules on the particular subject of travelling in First with Standard tickets.

 

On your point of 'I think I would have noticed after a while and moved..'

How long is 'after a while'?

 

RPI was quite right, the length of time is an irrelevance. The journey running time from Redhill to Purley, is only 10 minutes and your journey was being made in the First Class therefore the full first class fare is due and payable.

 

By your own admission, a Penalty Notice was issued and if this is now subject to a Summons, you will also have to explain to the Court why you neither appealed if you thought you were in the right or, paid the fare due as requested.

 

Hope that helps

Edited November 13, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[rebel11]

Yep I'd say Partybonkers is negtive on train travel, no doubt he's got quite a few friends, no doubt his friends will sympathize with him, no doubt his

friends will consider alternative methods of transport. Word of mouth either relays a bad experience or a good experience. Yep they'll gain his

£105, but they'll lose £500.