Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Suspended pending investigation thats already happened ?


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 5145 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 352
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi,

 

When you say schedule of loss what is this for ? you previously stated that you got a new job straight away ?

 

I got a job quite quickly considering but was still out of work and unpaid for almost 10 weeks etc.

 

Beware if you lose the et the company may pursue you for costs etc ?

 

No they wont as i have repeadtly told you, it's about 1% that have costs awarded against them and normally thats due to the claimant not following procedure and not having a good case. The ones that do gets costs awarded against them most are under £200 aswell.

 

regards

 

You have just stated that the other side mite be doubting their own case by trying to agree things before the case then u state i may have to pay their costs?

Which one is it ?

Edited by majik

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I am just going on my past experiences, that the more aggresive i got the more aggresive my od company got, i put a claim in for costs and loss of earnings, so they then put in for expenses etc, even though i won it still took up a lot of my time, and the money i got certainly did not make up for it.

 

Why was you out of work for 10 weeks unpaid ? i thought you got a job straight away and they would have had to pay you whilst on suspension ???

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I am just going on my past experiences, that the more aggresive i got the more aggresive my od company got, i put a claim in for costs and loss of earnings, so they then put in for expenses etc, even though i won it still took up a lot of my time, and the money i got certainly did not make up for it.

 

I have not been aggressive at all with the company, i have my evidence and they have their's my evidence is actualy what they have said/done.

I am not claimng costs im claiming my loss of earning, I have not intentions of claiming my costs and i know that i proabably wouldn't be granted them anyways.

They can only claim costs if my case is bad or im just doing it for money/to damage the company, That is not the case and ACAS has confirmed i could go for a lot more if i was that way inclined and that they feel my case is fair.

 

Maybe you didn't run your case that way and thats why the company put in for costs against you ? As you have not mentioned your case at all i wouldn't know. I would have thought you would have been advised not to claim costs though as they are very rarely awarded.

 

Why was you out of work for 10 weeks unpaid ? i thought you got a job straight away and they would have had to pay you whilst on suspension ???

 

I was paid whilst suspended and it took me around 10 weeks to start my new employment, as my new employer had to go through their interviews etc i think this is a very short time considering we are in a recession ! ACAS agreed that i have done very well to find a new job in same wage range etc in such a short time frame.

 

Regards

 

It has been pointed out to you by myself and some of the HR guru's on here that costs are very unlikely to be awarded yet you still feel the need to continually bring it up etc, i am well aware of the small risk that costs my be awarded but i feel that i have a good enough case to avaoid this and possibly even have costs awarding to myself.

 

I am after advice on the ET process and the like and to date you have been very selective on providing any of your alleged insite into following your own ET case.

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Im very confused about this 10 weeks out of work ? in your earlier posts you state that you was sacked some time in october and that you then started your new job on 21st oct 2010 ????

 

Your old company and et will be very thorough in checking this out.

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Im very confused about this 10 weeks out of work ? in your earlier posts you state that you was sacked some time in october and that you then started your new job on 21st oct 2010 ????

 

Your old company and et will be very thorough in checking this out.

 

Regards

 

I am delibrately using rough dates so that the company cannot know its me as it would be rather stupid to post the exact dates up now wouldn't it, i know exactly how long i was out of work for and that it what i am claiming

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

So how can we give you advice if you are being very flexible with the facts ????

 

I have asked for advice on how the ET works, for that you do not need to knows dates and so far it is the only thing you haven't managed to talk about.

The dates i have given are correct enough for the advise i need. I have said around 10 weeks loss of earnings, What differance would it make to the advise given if it was 11 weeks or 9 weeks ?

 

How would your old company know you are even using this website out of the thousands that are on the internet ???

 

The company are very sly and i believe that they will be trawling the net, they have already made referance to this site in County Court papers but it was a thread that had nothing to do with me.

 

Regards

 

Please see my comments in red

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I am purely basing the dates on your blogs and you state that you was only out of work for appx 2 - 3 weeks at the most not 9,10 or 11 weeks ?

 

What was stated in the county court papers ? how did they find out you was using this site ? they must have some really good and thorough managers /spys, lol

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I am purely basing the dates on your blogs and you state that you was only out of work for appx 2 - 3 weeks at the most not 9,10 or 11 weeks ?

 

The question you were asked is would you have given different advise if it was 8 weeks or 12 weeks etc ?

I said around 10 weeks I have the exact dates on the ET paperwork and i am only claiming for the exact dates as i have already said.

 

What was stated in the county court papers ? how did they find out you was using this site ? they must have some really good and thorough managers /spys, lol

 

Regards

 

Im not going into the above for obvious reasons lol

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

im not sure there is anything more i can do for you, with all the secrecy and paranoia.

 

I will happily give you advice on the et, as i have done many times in my previous blogs. but i think you should wait till you have there evidence , then you will see exactly what they have and vice versa.

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

im not sure there is anything more i can do for you, with all the secrecy and paranoia.

 

I am not being secretive or paranoid

 

I will happily give you advice on the et, as i have done many times in my previous blogs. but i think you should wait till you have there evidence , then you will see exactly what they have and vice versa.

 

Regards

 

When was this ? you have asked the ins and outs of the case in detail but as of yet have not managed to explain the process or how an ET works.

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

post #81

They do get the chance to cross examing you, and any witnesses you supply, so you must make sure you are ready for any questions.

Post #84

It is not that i am not keen, it is just you have to realise how serious an ET is.

You have to make sure that you have all the facts and allways tell the truth.

Any slight wrong doing or if your company have anything on you. it will come to light in the meeting. and believe me the employer has allways done there homework and has a mass of evidence and signed documents , and a signed employee handbook.

You have to make sure that you have everything in writing and make sure that you have done nothing wrong, for example the alleged threatning behaviour towards the staff by your other half, they may bring the member of staff as a witness and they will tell the judge how they felt threatned and had to press the panic alarm and involve the police etc.

Post #90

the disciplinary and appeal are about you, the ET judge may look down on this. your ex employer should not be dsclosing anything to your other half about your case ?

 

I could go on, but i have advised you on many occassions, but not sure there is anything i can do till you get the evidence pack and then you can work out what your defence is, if you wish to private message me so your company cant see what you are writing, i am more than happy to advise you.

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

I could go on, but i have advised you on many occassions, but not sure there is anything i can do till you get the evidence pack and then you can work out what your defence is, if you wish to private message me so your company cant see what you are writing, i am more than happy to advise you.

 

Regards

 

That would be a breach of forum rules.

 

Does the CMO go to the ET and other side or just the other side ?

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

The cmo goes to the et and the other side.

 

Thanks, why didn't you say earlier ?

 

The private message function is there so you can send private messages, it does not breach the rules , see the faq section.

 

Regards

 

Giving advice by private mesage is against forum rules.

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the ET3 shows that you were only dismissed for allegation 4 thus making it a one issue claim, you have a pretty strong case, in my opinion.

 

The issue has 2 parts.

1. How did your OH get the code?

The Company's case.

At the disciplinary they asked you how your OH got the code.

You stated that you did not give it to him and produced a statement from your OH saying that he was given a code by a staff member.

They adjourned the disciplinary while they phoned the staff member.

The staff member denied giving your OH the code.

They believed the staff member. You were dismissed.

The staff member subsequently provided a written statement stating that they did not provide your OH with the code.

At the appeal they continued to believe the staff member so the dismissal was upheld.

 

Your case.

You state that you did not provide your OH with the code.

Your OH states that the code was provided by the staff member.

The Company had/has CCTV evidence available that could prove your innocence

The Company has not stated whether CCTV evidence was viewed by them before coming to their decision.

Although your OH has lawfully requested this evidence the Company has failed to provide it to date.

 

2. That, if they had a reasonable belief that you did give your OH the code, this amounts to a breach of security so serious as to amount to Gross Misconduct and that the penalty of dismissal was a reasonable response.

 

After the last few pages of this thread it would be overkill for me to break this down.

Just one point, I seem to remember that much earlier in the thread you said something about your OH being down as authorised for access in case of emergencies? If I have remembered that correctly you might want to add that to your statement when you get to that stage. (Also, if you or the Company has any documentary evidence of this that would be useful.)

 

however the companies solicitor has suggested we agree on a few issues before the ET to help minimise the time spent in ET. I have said im open to the suggestions and will talk more once i have the CMO etc and know what they are going to use.

 

Be very careful indeed here.

 

The role of ACAS is to settle the case before a tribunal. They are not on your side or the Company's side.

The advantages of them settling it are that with a COT3 you can negotiate an agreed reference and save time/stress/inconvenience.

 

The tribunal will look at:

Was the dismissal process procedurally fair?

Did the employer have grounds to hold a reasonable belief that you had committed the offence?

Was the penalty a reasonable response?

How much money should you be awarded to put you in the financial position you would have been in if you hadn't been unfairly dismissed?

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the ET3 shows that you were only dismissed for allegation 4 thus making it a one issue claim, you have a pretty strong case, in my opinion. (ET3 Confirms that allegations 1,2 and 3 were upheld following my appeall but allegation 4 was not and i was dismissed for allegation 4.)

 

The issue has 2 parts.

1. How did your OH get the code?

The Company's case.

At the disciplinary they asked you how your OH got the code. (Bone of contention as it is admiteed in both the disciplinary minutes and the appeal minutes that allegation 4 was not dealt with/addressed as part of the disciplinary meeting CEO's words not mine)

You stated that you did not give it to him and produced a statement from your OH saying that he was given a code by a staff member.

They adjourned the disciplinary while they phoned the staff member.

The staff member denied giving your OH the code.

They believed the staff member. You were dismissed.

The staff member subsequently provided a written statement stating that they did not provide your OH with the code.

At the appeal they continued to believe the staff member so the dismissal was upheld.

 

Your case.

You state that you did not provide your OH with the code. (If company followed their own procedure it wouldn't have worked as they should have disabled it at the investigative meeting when they took my keys etc)

Your OH states that the code was provided by the staff member.

The Company had/has CCTV evidence available that could prove your innocence

The Company has not stated whether CCTV evidence was viewed by them before coming to their decision. (The letter to OH from CEO confirms that he has throughly investigated the events on the day and he is of the opinion that no offence occured, I would assume that this would mean he had viewed the CCTV footage and although this is probably more related to the incidents PM and not AM it makes no mentions of it, just states "events on the day")

Although your OH has lawfully requested this evidence the Company has failed to provide it to date. They are now in the process of complying with OH SAR once it was pointed out that the County Court defense was a load of cok and bull and OH provided them with the proof.

 

2. That, if they had a reasonable belief that you did give your OH the code, this amounts to a breach of security so serious as to amount to Gross Misconduct and that the penalty of dismissal was a reasonable response. (This is another thing that im not sure of, they admit that the code was only used to take photo's of CCTV signage, Therefore poses no risk to the company and no malice is intended.)

 

After the last few pages of this thread it would be overkill for me to break this down.

Just one point, I seem to remember that much earlier in the thread you said something about your OH being down as authorised for access in case of emergencies? If I have remembered that correctly you might want to add that to your statement when you get to that stage. (Also, if you or the Company has any documentary evidence of this that would be useful.)

 

OH was listed as a second contact, meaning if they couldn't get hold of me they would contact him etc who could deal with an issue etc, i feel this point alone would be suffient to prove he had full access to site etc.

 

however the companies solicitor has suggested we mite agree on a few issues before the ET to help minimise the time spent in ET. I have said im open to the suggestions and will talk more once i have the CMO etc and know what they are going to use.

 

Be very careful indeed here. I intend too, i will listen to what they have to say if anything.

 

The role of ACAS is to settle the case before a tribunal. They are not on your side or the Company's side.

The advantages of them settling it are that with a COT3 you can negotiate an agreed reference and save time/stress/inconvenience.

 

I have already found a new employer so referance not really relevant anymore however would still like it as part of settlement.

The tribunal will look at:

Was the dismissal process procedurally fair? I can prove that at least 2 members of staff have commited the same acts as i have been accused of and faced no disciplinary action, infact one was promoted to my old job.

Did the employer have grounds to hold a reasonable belief that you had committed the offence? If they followed their own company procedure the offense could not have occured.

Was the penalty a reasonable response? As per above no action taken against 2 other members of staff with same alleged offences so my arguement is not.

How much money should you be awarded to put you in the financial position you would have been in if you hadn't been unfairly dismissed?

 

I have commented in red

 

While i have a guru here could you please answer the following questions:

 

Do i have to send my CMO to both the Other side and ET or just the Other side?

 

Do i have to write witness statements on the CMO, CMO states that they should be exchanged 14 days before hearing and i haven't even written mine yet ?

 

Many thanks for any assistance Mariefab

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I that assume by when you say CMO that it's a Notice of Orders from the Tribunal Chairman.

 

The next stage would usually be the disclosure of documents.

This is where you exchange lists of all the documents that you intend to rely on to support your claim.

You do not have to send this list to the tribunal you just send it to the other side. (I suggest by special delivery.)

 

In case you haven't already done this, I suggest that you number your list of documents e.g.

 

1. Contract of employment

2. Last 3 normal payslips dated ?/?/09 etc.

3. Final payslip dated ?/?/09

4. Letter inviting you to disciplinary dated ?/?/09

5. Email sent before diciplinary refering to allegation 4 dated ?/?/09

6. Copy of OH statement provided at disciplinary

7. Company Disciplinary Procedure documents

Minutes of meetings, requests for CCTV, letters of dismissal and appeal decision........

 

In short every single piece of paper, in your possession, that you may refer to at the Tribunal.

 

The opposition will send you a similar list and you can then request a copy of any document on their list that you don't have and vice versa.

 

Also in the companies downfall where any evidence/documents were shown the company makes no referance in the minutes (typed or hand written) as to what it was, they merely state xx shown a letter or a extract No mention of what it relates to, this has already casused problems as i have asked for a copy of something shown and they state i already have it, i said i dont and they are now not sure what it can be.

If, on receiving their list, you don't find documents to match the above you can still request them quoting the minutes to them to show which documents you mean.

If they repeat that they don't have them or don't know what they are (in writing) this will just make them look worse.

 

You don't include witness statements at this stage. As you say these will be exchanged two weeks before the hearing.

It'll be easier to do your witness statement after the disclosure of documents is completed because you'll have a better idea of their case then and you can refer (highlighted in bold) to the documents in the lists by number to save having to write the whole saga out.

 

The tribunal will look at:

Was the dismissallink8.gif process procedurally fair? I can prove that at least 2 members of staff have commited the same acts as i have been accused of and faced no disciplinary action, infact one was promoted to my old job.

By procedurally fair I mean; did they invite you to a disciplinary meeting,

inform you of your right to be accompanied by a colleague or union rep, tell you of your right to appeal etc.

 

Did the employer have grounds to hold a reasonable belief that you had committed the offence? If they followed their own company procedure the offense could not have occured.

Their only grounds appears to be the staff members statement.

 

Was the penalty a reasonable response? As per above no action taken against 2 other members of staff with same alleged offences so my arguement is not.

Agreed. But, what I was getting at was, that as any Tom, Dick or Harry can easily gain legitimate access to the area that the code allowed entry to (which you will no doubt explain at length in your later witness statement), it's hard to see how they can say that it was so severe a breach of security as to warrant summary dismissal.

 

 

How much money should you be awarded to put you in the financial position you would have been in if you hadn't been unfairly dismissed

 

You can claim a payment for loss of employment rights (used to be £250), notice pay, untaken holiday pay and the difference between what you have earned on the date of dismissal and the tribunal hearing date.

Link to post
Share on other sites

CMO is Case Management Order where we have been asked to provide list of documnets we will be using in date order etc.

 

Im doing my best to comply but as i dont have the CCTV i am unsure whether i need to put it in (undated as not recieved) or not.

 

Procedually fair is in contention as it disputed as to whether allegation 4 was dealt with at disciplinary or not, if it wasn't which company have stated it wasn't twice then no it cant have been as allegation 4 was not addressed until the appeal and i was given no right of appeal to the apopeal (i hope that makes sense)

 

Many thanks for all your help at this ungodly hour, you have helped confirm that i am doing everything as i should be and that i seem to have a good case.

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

CMO is Case Management Order where we have been asked to provide list of documnets we will be using in date order etc.

Your list needs to be of documents in your possession now.

 

Im doing my best to comply but as i dont have the CCTV i am unsure whether i need to put it in (undated as not recieved) or not.

If you made a written request for the CCTV put that on your list.

Otherwise, put a copy of your OH's SAR on your list.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok

 

I will update my CMO later on today

 

I cant request OH SAR, they will refuse under the Data Protection Act, OH will let me use it but as he hasn't had it yet im unsure whether it will turn up before i have to submit.

 

Would i be able to add to the CMO or should i add it and hope it turns up before ET hearing ?

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if I've been unclear.

 

Your OH wrote to your former employer asking for CCTV evidence.

That letter itself was his Subject Access Request.

 

Put something like, ' Subject Access Request from ..OH's name..to data controller's name dated ?/?/09 ' on your list of documents.

 

That way you will be able to show that the CCTV existed and the Company were aware of it. They will then need to explain why they didn't use it in your case.

 

I just remembered the letter that your OH received stating that no further action would be taken in regard to the events of that day.

Put that letter on your list too.

 

It's possible that the oppositions solicitor's may try to prevent you using these letters on the grounds that they were not addressed to you or some such thing. Their admissability will be for the Tribunal to decide and because one point of view could be that you were dismissed for something that your OH did they could well be allowed.

 

But if you don't put them on your list you may not be able to use the relevance of the CCTV footage at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if I've been unclear.

 

Your OH wrote to your former employer asking for CCTV evidence.

That letter itself was his Subject Access Request.

 

Put something like, ' Subject Access Request from ..OH's name..to data controller's name dated ?/?/09 ' on your list of documents.

 

Ok that has now been added

 

That way you will be able to show that the CCTV existed and the Company were aware of it. They will then need to explain why they didn't use it in your case.

 

I wasn't sure whether i could put something down that i dont physically have, thanks for confirming that i can.

 

I just remembered the letter that your OH received stating that no further action would be taken in regard to the events of that day.

Put that letter on your list too.

 

That was already on there lol as i feel this is quite important.

 

It's possible that the oppositions solicitor's may try to prevent you using these letters on the grounds that they were not addressed to you or some such thing. Their admissability will be for the Tribunal to decide and because one point of view could be that you were dismissed for something that your OH did they could well be allowed.

 

I was ready to argue this point, If they can hold me responsible for my OH actions then surely i can use the OH letter confirming that the events did not happen.

 

But if you don't put them on your list you may not be able to use the relevance of the CCTV footage at all.

 

Many thanks for confirming the above, i think my CMO is just about ready now, will email if off 1 day before its due to other side.

If any of my posts are helpful, please feel free to click my scales. All information is given as my opinion only, based on my own personal Experiences/Mistakes lol...

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...