Employment Tribunerals

[vickyalfie]

Hi I need some help here my partner got sacked from his job as a postman of 21 years there was a lot of things going on in the office he had a firms walk which is a lot of mail to deliver on a bike, the other firms walk all delivered in vans, he asked one of the driver's to take the mail for one of his firms as he could not fit it his bag, she was driving right past it she is on a firms walk and this is done between two people, he blew up and was told off by the manager, anyway he was talking outside to a collegue and he said she drives so close she can get itthrough the window, a friend of this driver overheard what he said and told her that he threatned to put her window through anyway my partner was called in the office and suspended, from futher investigation by the manager she had another witness who had heard him say through the window ,he produced six witness statments which he opened in front of the area manager it appears that one of the witness statements was made by the second witness of the manager, she had in fact done two statements and one saying that she had heard my partner say through the window and in her statement about my partner she had said she was unsure of what she had heard, after i talked to her she felt intimidated by the manager and asked for her statemnet to be retracted she was told no. I know what it is like to work in that office as I have just left there myself and people are afraid of lossing their jobs, he had made a complaint on several occasions asking what these two drivers did to earn the bonus that you get because they did not have to take another part of a walk out and all posties had to take a section out they still earned the bonus but did not take any of a walk out. THe area manager sent him the notes of the meeting and told him to comment on anything and he would reach his decision, i posted the letter on a tuesday and my partner got a letter the next day saying that the area manager had reached his decision, this was the wednesday morning h got dismissed, how could anybody reach a decision so fast???? anyawy he had his appeal and the appeals manager had found that the line manager and the area manager had not investigated this matter properley i have all this in writing, her comments were that she found it dispicable that he had not apologised to the driver and she had also said that he had said that the driver might have been a bit prickley on this day the union rep had actualley said this statement not my partner he has been slagged off royal by royal mail managers did not infact say what he was accussed of saying, he was misheard he has his tribuneral at the end of this month the union has said he is not confident he will win it can anyone advise me please he has worked there for over 21 years and has an unbleamished record, Royal Mail want to get rid off all the full time members of staff I have just been medically retired from Royal mail, I had dealings with the area manager and dragged his feet when they were paying me off, he wanted me to re-sign and I refused then this happens a week later can any of this be mentioned in the tribuneral, the union rep has said it is not relevant,, please help this is making me even more ill with the worry

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Bump

[mariefab]

Can you please answer the following questions:

 

1. On what date was he suspended?

 

2. On what date did the Disciplinary hearing with the area manager take place?

 

3. Before the Disciplinary hearing:

a) Was he told exactly what he was accused of?

b) Was he informed about what evidence was to be used against him?

c) Was he given copies of this evidence?

d) Was he informed of the possible consequences, to himself, of the Disciplinary hearing?

 

4. On what date was he dismissed?

This should be on the letter he received after the disciplinary hearing.

 

5. Was the charge described as Gross Misconduct?

 

6. Was he given any pay in lieu of notice?

 

7. On what date was the Appeal held?

　

8. The Appeals manager wrote that they found that the line manager and the area manager had not investigated the matter properly. So, what reasons did the Appeals manager give for upholding the decision to dismiss him?

 

9. At any point, either verbally at the hearings or in the written notes of those hearings, did anyone say that they took his long service and his unblemished record into consideration.

[vickyalfie]

Hi the following

1. He was suspended on 13th February

2.formal conduct interview with the area manager was on 3rd March 2009

 

3 Before the Disciplinary Hearing.

a) he got a letter from the area manager dated 25/02/09 charging him with gross misconduct for foul and abusive language and making threats about a member of staff both allegations were not put simultaneously on the day prior to suspension they were put in different times if a person makes a complaint surley the whole version of events would be explained at the point of initial complaint.

 

b) two witness statements that were unsigned and not dated. there were six people present at the time that he was supposed to made these alledged comments at the inital fact finding interview the line manager did not question all of the witnesses properley they were just asked verbally by the line manager 4 of the witness said that they did not hear him say these things the person who made the intial complaint was not in the company of him and the rest of the group, but was outside loading the van, the other witness that the manager approached was asked did she hear him say anything she said she had heard him say through the window, he was actualley talking to another driver about she drives she could pass it through the window. When he had his formal interview he asked all the people present to do witness statements to make an account of what happened at the said time, he got all the statements and one of his witnesses was one that the line manager had asked, the witness in question had said that she had heard him say through the window and then her other witness statement she had said that she could not be certain if she had infact heard him say this as she was talking to another member of staff at the time, she ad asked that because she was not 100% percent sure she wanted her statement to be re-tracted the liine manager denied her this, I know what the line manager is like and she can be very forcefull, the witness felt pushed into a corner by the line manager at the time.

 

c)2 witness statements that were unsigned and not dated.

 

d)he was told that he could b facing dismissal.

 

4. He was dismissed on 13 March 2009

 

5.yes gross misconduct.

 

6.no pay in lieu of notice.

 

7.the appeal hearing was 22nd April 2009

 

8.That he was fully aware of Royal Mails standards of zero tolerance.

 

9.They were aware of his long service and of his unblemished record.

 

I hope this is of use of use to you thanks very much

 

kind regards Vicjy

[mariefab]

http://www.cwunwdivision.com/ConductCode.pdf

 

Section 2 Guiding principles

no disciplinary action will be taken against an employee until the case has been satisfactorily investigated

The Appeals manager wrote that the line manager and the area manager had not investigated the matter properly?

Section 4 Employee rights

4.4 Work Record and Extenuating circumstances. Employees have the right to have their previous work record and conduct and any extenuating circumstances fully taken into account.

You say that they were aware of his record but did anyone actually bring it up at any time from just before he was suspended to after the Appeals process.

5. Remedial approach

The manager will then decide whether the explanation is acceptable (giving any necessary counselling or a ticking off) or whether it is necessary to carry out more detailed fact finding within the discipline process.

He did receive a ticking off at the time. So, that should have meant no further action.

11. Precautionary Suspension from duty

 

Questions:

1. While he was suspended was this with pay or without pay?

 

2. Am I right in assuming that they upheld the dismissal solely on the 'foul and abusive language' charge?

(I guess that this refers to when he 'blew up')

　

3. Was it suggested to him that he should apologise to the driver?

 

4. Does your husband have a witness statement from the union rep stating that it was he who said that, the driver might have been a bit prickley on this day'?

[vickyalfie]

the area manager did not think it ncessary to interview the other witnesses as he thought that there was enough grounds to charge him with gross misconduct from the 2 witness statements that the line manager had taken. yes the union rep brought his clan rcord to their attention they were fully aware of it. The line manager did tick him off ih the office but then he was supposed to have made this threating accusation outside after she had ticked him off.

 

Q1, he was on full pay during untill he was dismissed.

 

Q2 They did say that although his record was clean they thought that the likely hood of him repeating this so called abusive and threating behaviour would occur again and royal has a zero tolerance approach to mattres like this.

 

3.the appeals manager in her own actual words and i have this inwriting that she found it despicable that he had not offered to apologise for what he had said about the driver. Why would he apologise if he did not say this it would have looked like an admission that he had said this.

 

4. With the interview with the appeals manager the minutes of the meeting it states that the union rep said the driver might be a bit prickley due to personal problems, and then in her letter of decsion of dismissal, the area manager said that my partner had made this statment she clearly has got it wrong because she took the minutes of the meeting herself and wrote down everything that she had asked and the answers that she was given both by my partner and the union rep.

[mariefab]

OK, I'm a bit confused by this so can we do it one step at a time.

 

Ist Incident

When he asked the driver, who was going to drive right past the firm, to take the mail for him because he couldn't fit it in his bag; the driver refused and he 'blew up' and was told off by the manager.

 

Was this incident the reason they charged him with foul and abusive language?

[vickyalfie]

hi that was the first incident the line manager was stood right by his side and he did not swear just complained that they were not doing extra wok like everybody else. he went outside for a cig and he was talking to his friends another driver said that my partner had made these commets about the other driver outside this is what they have dismissed him for

[mariefab]

Could you please click on the link at the top of my post#5 and let me know if it's the correct Company policy document?

 

OK, so the blow up was when he complained that they weren't doing extra work like everyone else and the line manager told him off for it which meant that this incident was dealt with and so no further action was taken about the 'blow up' incident.

 

Am I correct so far?

[vickyalfie]

yes that is correct

[mariefab]

yes that is correct Good!

 

So the incident he was dismissed for was when he said,

'She drives so close she could get it through the window.' (When he was talking about the mail the driver refused to deliver for him.)

and they describe this as ' Gross Misconduct for foul and abusive language and making threats about a member of staff.'

 

Can you just confirm that the two unsigned, undated witness statements that they relied on to make the decision to dismiss him came from:

1. The driver's friend (who after hearing what he said went and told the driver that your partner 'threatened to put her window through').

2. The woman who said that she heard your partner say, 'through the window'. ( Although she later wished to retract that statement but was refused.)

[vickyalfie]

yes that is all correct quite confusing is'nt it ??????

[mariefab]

Do you have copies of these 2 witness statements?

 

If so, can you please type them both out on here.

Don't put any real names in your answer.

Instead use AAA for your partner and DDD for the driver.

[vickyalfie]

Hi here are the two witness statements against him, Witness 1. DDD

 

At Approx 9.40am on friday 13th Feb 09 AAA thrreantd to put a brick through a third parties window. Mr AAA also used foul language towards the third party, the words used during the sentance was "****ing bitch". AAA also said the third party also needed to watch their back, AAA was very irrate, when he was saying the above. The third party was not outside in the yard when this happened.

 

Witness 2. I heard AAA on friday 13th Feb2009 say to the Driver he was going to put a brick thorugh the third parties window.

 

Witness later did a statemnet on behalf of my partner and said she had misheard him and wished to retract the statement she said she could not be sure that she had heard what was said and after tlaking to another person who my partner was talking to at the time had made a serious error of judgement

[mariefab]

OK, can you next type out in the same way all of the 6 statements that your partner opened in front of the area manager. Put && before the statement from the person who was witness 2 above.

[vickyalfie]

&& in regards to the above that happened on fri 13 feb concerning AAA i was outside having a cig talking to a friend as AAA passedgoing back into the office I heard him say I'm going to put through her window, I presumed he was talking to the driver as she was nearest to him.

 

Witness 2 To whom it may concern on fri 13 feb I and a few other people were sat outside when AAA was supposed to have made threats towards someone else in our office. I was sat next to AAA but was having a conversation with someone else about a stag do we are going on in march, but under no circumstances did AAA make threats towards another member of staff, on that day or any other day. I think that our office is in a very sorry state without members of our staff throwing about unfounded accusations, the sooner this matter is dealt with the correct result the better.

 

another van driver

Witness 3 on friday 13 feb I was loading my van up on the stage when AAA walked back into the office, he shouted to me she could have got that through her window she goes that close. I feel this was regards to the altercation with the driver about the firmshe asked her to take which the manager dealt with.

 

The other witness stated that they did not here a thing