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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Freehold Managers PLC forcing me to buy their insurance?


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Thanks for the help

There are 37 flats and I have contacted them all and told them not to pay Freehold Managers ( no matter how threatning a letter they get )

I have told FM to send one invoice for the total bill to our management company. We will pay them in full for the insurance but will "talk about"

any admin charges Last year it was 5K on top of a 10K policy Nice work if you can get it for just one phone call and sending out 37 invoices

 

 

EEkk !..Looks confusing.

 

What do you mean by 'our' management company ?, have you already gone through the RTM/RTE process ?

 

Also refering to your first post, you say you already had insurance ?. What exactly was this ?. Buildings Insurnace just for your flat ?. Buildings insurance for the whole building divided by 37 ? or Contents insurance ?

 

Andy

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Andy

Sorry We have a management agent (not company ) who used to sort out the insurance for us and when Freehod Managers purchased the Freehold they told our Management agents that they would now look after the insurance.

By sending an invoice to each leaseholder they "divide and seperate" us.

I am trying to get one invoice sent to our Management Agent who will the invoice each leaseholder.

This will take admin work away from Freehold Managers . It will be hard to justify 5K for sending one invoice and making one call to the broker.

Our Management Agent gets a set fee and so will do the work for free as it were

With one invoice I hope to have more power to insist on knowing the full facts before we pay

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Andy

Sorry We have a management agent (not company ) who used to sort out the insurance for us and when Freehod Managers purchased the Freehold they told our Management agents that they would now look after the insurance.

By sending an invoice to each leaseholder they "divide and seperate" us.

I am trying to get one invoice sent to our Management Agent who will the invoice each leaseholder.

This will take admin work away from Freehold Managers . It will be hard to justify 5K for sending one invoice and making one call to the broker.

Our Management Agent gets a set fee and so will do the work for free as it were

With one invoice I hope to have more power to insist on knowing the full facts before we pay

 

Im still confused.

 

Invoices are always sent to individuals showing the cost that the individual would pay, one invoice wouldnt make sense.

 

Thew normal course of events is that the landlord(or freeholder) owns the land that your flats are on and therefore has a duty to maintain the premises and insure them all. They normally dont actually do this themselves, they employ a management agent/company to do this, the management agent/company bills the landlord/freeholder who in turn bills you.

 

I cant get my head around where the management agent/company fits into this, who employs them ?. You and your fellow flat owners ?

 

Andy

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Hi Andy

We employ the Management Agents to look after the admin etc

We now also have to pay Freehold Managers an "hidden" admin charge for arranging insurance

 

So we are paying for something we do not need or want ie our Management agents would provide this service as part of whole service

charge

 

FM do have the right to purchase our insurance and to recieve a "cut back" from the broker But I do not think they can also add on an Admin charge when it is not stated in the lease

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Hi Andy

We employ the Management Agents to look after the admin etc

We now also have to pay Freehold Managers an "hidden" admin charge for arranging insurance

 

So we are paying for something we do not need or want ie our Management agents would provide this service as part of whole service

charge

 

FM do have the right to purchase our insurance and to recieve a "cut back" from the broker But I do not think they can also add on an Admin charge when it is not stated in the lease

 

Who is 'we' ? The collection of flatowners ?

 

Have you already gone through a RTM process ? It sounds like you already have.

 

Andy

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Andy

We are the leaseholders some of us live in the flats and some rent them. so there are three players

The leaseholder us who pays for

The Management Agent

Freeholder (Freehold Managers ) who are shafting us

As for the RTM what is it

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Andy

We are the leaseholders some of us live in the flats and some rent them. so there are three players

The leaseholder us who pays for

The Management Agent

Freeholder (Freehold Managers ) who are shafting us

As for the RTM what is it

 

Hi..

 

Well..The actuial contract (the lease) should be between you (leaseholders) and owners of the land (freeholders), all the legalities are between you.

 

The management agent should have nothing to do with the legalities of it (unless there is mention of them in the lease ?).

 

Management agents would normally be employed by the freeholder or the leaseholders have banded together and made a RTM (right to manage) company, this company then looks after all the aspects and its out of the hands of the freeholder.

 

It would be interesting to know how the management agent fits into all of this ?. Is he employed by you or tye freeholder ?

 

As youve described it the MC and Freeholder seem to be at odds with other (who insures, etc) which sounds wierd.

 

Andy

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Hi Andy

The MA work for us the leaseholders. We the leaseholders have a Management company it has never done anything (it was set up by the developer and all the directors have resigned so I have just put myself forward to be a director. (this will take a few months to go through with shares being sent to each leaseholder.

 

I hhave wrote to the Freeholder FM(As a Director ) even though I am not one just yet asking our if our MA can look after the insurance but had no reply

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Hi Andy

The MA work for us the leaseholders. We the leaseholders have a Management company it has never done anything (it was set up by the developer and all the directors have resigned so I have just put myself forward to be a director. (this will take a few months to go through with shares being sent to each leaseholder.

 

I have wrote to the Freeholder FM(As a Director ) even though I am not one just yet asking our if our MA can look after the insurance but had no reply

 

It sounds like the management company is an RTM company, (or at least something similar), RTM's take over all the running and maintainence and also insurance as far as I know.

 

You may like to visit the landlord zone forum and post on there as they have lots of experts, there is a long leasehold forum which deals with service charges, etc and also an insurance forum which may be relevant.

 

I think before anything can be done it needs to be clear what responsibilities all 3 parties have.

 

Andy

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rocket99, hello again, andydd, hi, been reading though the comments with interest

 

Will go through this as I understand it from your posts. Some are questions for you, some are just observations/comments, but hope all proves helpful. There are also some other comments that have been made in passing by you, which will ALSO cover below, as may be helpful for you too. It's a bit late in the evening now though, so some of this may repeat itself, or is stuff you already know about :)

 

Also, having just googled the property details (B* W*, Bradford) I've edited this message again... and may well edit it again later so it reads better, but for now it may chop around a bit!

 

As I understand it:

 

1.) rocket99 is a leaseholder of 1 of 37 flats.

 

Question, when was the block built/redeveloped? A quick google suggests 2003, is that right?

 

2.) I ask as there's been a large rise in insurance.

 

It could well be justified, but I would be curious if the block was NOT new build and had had a previous re-valuation. And curiouser still as to why, if it IS new build, the insurance sum insured was set so low...

 

3.) Just googled your details, B*W*, and find a "renovated period building in popular city centre location". If so, suggest you edit your post to remove any personal/address references, as will I tomorrow!

 

Agents DO read these forums and no point giving away too many pointers, or leaving yourself open to libel :) Other Leaseholder forums have been closed down by Freeholders over the years, would hate to see that happen to CAG

 

4.) So, it may well be that *F*M* have done the right thing, had an insurance revaluation carried out, and found, to their horror, that the block was grossly under insured. On the other hand it still means a fee for them ("win win" etc). Just depends on how cynical you all are ;)

 

What did they charge for the insurance revaluation?

 

Who carried it out?

 

But see, 5), below

 

5.) It is VERY likely you will all be charged for the insurance revaluation. If they haven't billed you yet though DON'T remind them as there ARE time limits on incurring expenditure. No point reminding them and they might miss the deadline (which is generally 18 months from when the expense was incurred, unless certain notices have been served before the 18 month expiry)

 

6.) You are also now a new Director of the Resident Management Company (the RMC being responsible for the general running of the block). All OK so far

 

How was this arranged though? Have you had an AGM / EGM to ratify the same.

 

There are - or used to be - time limits on AGM's and various protocols to follow. Company Law has just changed as of the 1st October 2009 too, see Companies Act - Overview

 

Read through the stuff there for as a Director you are personally liable. It's not too much to worry about though and I'd hope your Agent (or whoever got you on as a Director) has explained all this to you, or, at least, directed you to Companies House website

 

7.) The previous Directors, likely to have been the developers themselves, or leaseholders who have already sold up have all resigned. Not uncommon. This the case for you?

 

8.) You have a Managing Agent working for you, E*?, to oversee/run the block. This the case? They ARE acting for YOU and not *F*M*?

 

9.) *F*M* are the Freeholders and they have an obligation to insure. Incidentally, you may find that they will invoice individual leaseholder's direct, but that's by the by for now

 

10.) In terms of formalising matters consider, at the outset, that any application to the LVT - to query the reasonableness of the insurance premium and even possibly the reinsurance valuation fee itself - will cost

 

More information available at

Residential Property Tribunal Service: Using Our Services - Tribunal and Committee Fees

 

also have a look at

http://www.rpts.gov.uk/pubs_and_forms/pdf/LVTguidance.pdf

 

If you are on speaking terms with the other flat owners - and all agree to contribute - then the relatively low costs do not look too bad when split amongst 37 leaseholders!

 

Get a round robin email to all the leaseholders if you can, but keep it simple / polite :)

 

11.) Obviously you need to be clear as to who pays / and when too / so that YOU (personally) do not get any extra headache for dealing with this, especially as I guess you are an unpaid volunteer. Is this last part correct?

 

12.) Renewal in March 2010? If so, lots of time to get extra comparable quotes, would suggest first

 

- get the policy documentation

- get the claims history

 

Might be worth asking for this from A* (? at *F*M*) first though and gauge his response/time to reply.

 

If in a few weeks there has been no response - and as a 'new' Director of the RMC - I would then be suggesting to A* that you will seek the information direct - and get on the 'phone to the Insurance Broker / Insurer direct, introduce yourself as a 'new' Director, keen to build a relationship etc.

 

You may find the Broker/Insurer will simply direct you back to *F*M*, but if you keep it "light" you'd be surprised at how much you could find out :)

 

13.) What's the minimum number of Directors required by your Memorandum & Articles of Association? Who is doing the Company Secretarial work for you?

 

Companies House are not really bothered by Resident Management Companies, but you can STILL pick up a fine/problems from time to time if you don't cover this aspect too

 

Your company number is *******? **? if so, all appears currently up to date

 

What are you being charged for the Company Secretarial service?

 

14.) If all this is the case, how are you getting on with E* too, if they are your Agent? I watched what happened to the previous agent with interest and E* picked up a LOT of their work!

 

15.) Please can you clarify YOUR position for me within the RMC, especially bearing in mind you could end up being responsible for positive - as well as negative - outcomes for the block.

 

You say that you are a Director (of the Resident Management Company). If so, do you have D&O (Directors & Officers) insurance cover?

 

I would hope that your Agent has gone through this with you already. Worst case scenario... you become personally liable for what goes wrong, so you arguably need the cover

 

So, it also seems quite right that the all leaseholders (including you, mind) pay their share of the D&O premium. Your Agent can arrange competitve quotes for you, if not already done

 

16.) Back to the "Average clause" in the insurance. Yes, arguably a valid point. Insurance revaluation, again, prudent. Fee for the Agent? Yes, of course, just depends on the level of the fee charged, of course. Was it reasonable? And all just depends on how cynical you are...

 

17.) Your Agent 'should' be aware of all this and 'could' assist, even if not part of their instruction... just depends on how you find them

 

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified legal advice :)

 

Hope all this helps, any question please let us all know. Once sorted perhaps we can produce an edited version of this exchange to help others too

 

That cover it for now?

Edited by NewSAHD

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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It sounds like the management company is an RTM company, (or at least something similar), RTM's take over all the running and maintainence and also insurance as far as I know.

 

You may like to visit the landlord zone forum and post on there as they have lots of experts, there is a long leasehold forum which deals with service charges, etc and also an insurance forum which may be relevant.

 

I think before anything can be done it needs to be clear what responsibilities all 3 parties have.

 

Andy

 

Hi, at present, I see it that

 

- rocket99 (or more correctly "B* RMC") have responsibility for management/day to day running

- *F*M* have responsibility for insurance, but little or nothing else

- rocket99's (or more correctly "* RMC") Agent, E*, actually deal with the management/day to day running and so collect Service Charges for rocket99 (etc)

- *F*M* have responsibility for insurance, collect same, plus also collect their Ground Rent, if any

 

 

Remind me to edit these posts :D (DONE!)

Edited by NewSAHD

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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Hi, at present, I see it that

 

- rocket99 (or more correctly "Behrens RMC") have responsibility for management/day to day running

- Freehold Managers have responsibility for insurance, but little or nothing else

- rocket99's (or more correctly "Behrens RMC") Agent, Eddisons, actually deal with the management/day to day running and so collect Service Charges for rocket99 (etc)

- Freehold Managers have responsibility for insurance, collect same, plus also collect their Ground Rent, if any

 

Not uncommon, also, Freehold Manager's interested in the reversionary interest and commission on insurance

 

Remind me to edit these posts :D

 

I was under the impression that in the case of an RTM or similar that all of the managemnet would be performed by the managemnet company, this would include insurance ?

 

My lease says landlord to insure but if i (with other flat owner) made a RTM company and took over running then we (or we prefered management company we employed) would take control of evrything in the annual service charge, admin, maintainence, insurance.

 

Having choice over your own insurance arrangements is the no.1 cause of people wanting to do an RTM, as they get sick of the landlords high prices.

 

Andy

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The Plot thickens . I said that there were three players I was wrong

(1) We have the owners of the flats at behrens (leaseholders) 37 off

(2) We now have the Management Company me and 3 other leaseholders

(3) Eddisons our Managing Agents we pay them and they look after the day to day running

(4) Freehold Managers (Nominees)LTD the Landlord

(5)Freehold Managers PLC who are a seperate company but act for FM (nom)

(5) Zurich the insurance company (who have a special deal with the Broker)

(6) Oval the broker for Freehold Managers (Alasdair is the MD ) the broker has the power to write and keep the policy. Zurich do not even have a copy. It is all bunched together in some kind of special deal

 

What is very clever is that by spliting Freehold Managers into two companies when I wrote 5 letters asking for details of any commision or add on charge. Freehold Mangers replied that this is a matter between the Broker and the Landlord and would not tell me ( it just so happens that the landlord is FM (Nominees) same people but different company

 

Ok back to the points above

(1) I do not have a problem with the insurance . We now have a price of 7K with Zurich . I think we can get it for 6K but Zurich is a good company . It is the added on admin charge that no one admits to that pushes the up price to £10500

 

(2) As for the revaluation. We had a 15K bill sent to all the leaseholders in March asking for our 37th of the 15K. In 2003 the insurance cost 4K. We the leaseholders wrote to complain and I think that Freehold Managers must have realised that 15K was over the top even by their standards. Some "revaluation" took place by Oval and the Bill was reduced to £10500

 

I did what you suggested and contacted Oval and managed by a little craftness did find out (and have proof ) that Freehold Managers tried to add on 5K to a 10K invoice but then "changed there minds and added 3.5K to a 7K bill

7 the previous directors were the developers and have not taken any part in anything to date and have no interest in matters

 

(10) I have the address of all leaseholders and have contacted them. I have instucted them not to pay FM for there 37th of insurance bill. Eddisons our agent will pay them in one payment then collect the money from the each leaseholder at a latter date. This will make it easier for FM to be paid but will give us a bit of leverage to ask

Please tell us how much admin charge are you adding to this bill before we pay you the full amount. Up to now this has been a hidden cost.

 

As for the RTM Eddisons our agents are doing that for us and yes we have insurance

 

 

(12) We can get comparable quotes however we may only save about 1K

I have asked for a direct quote from Oval but he is fobbing us off. I have also asked if he can bill us direct. That way it it plain to see the net cost

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I was under the impression that in the case of an RTM or similar that all of the managemnet would be performed by the managemnet company, this would include insurance ?

 

My lease says landlord to insure but if i (with other flat owner) made a RTM company and took over running then we (or we prefered management company we employed) would take control of evrything in the annual service charge, admin, maintainence, insurance.

 

Having choice over your own insurance arrangements is the no.1 cause of people wanting to do an RTM, as they get sick of the landlords high prices.

 

Andy

 

Andy

Is it that simple. We are a managemt company. So do we just tell FM that we will get the insurance from now on

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Andy

Is it that simple. We are a managemt company. So do we just tell *F*M*that we will get the insurance from now on

 

Depends on your lease

 

From what you said before, the answer would appear to be a "no"

 

Also, if the liability under the terms of the lease rests with *F*M* then, strictly speaking, they may still insist on billing each leaseholder direct - or seek an indemnity from you in the event that any leaseholder later challenges the reasonableness of the premium

 

It's a potential mindfield for them (and you) so it would appear they will simply follow the lease, as they should, and bill each leaseholder individually

 

Preparing for halloween at present :D so will come back to the posts later!

Edited by NewSAHD

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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(2) As for the revaluation. We had a 15K bill sent to all the leaseholders in March asking for our 37th of the 15K. In 2003 the insurance cost 4K. We the leaseholders wrote to complain and I think that *F*M* must have realised that 15K was over the top even by their standards. Some "revaluation" took place by O*** and the Bill was reduced to £10500

 

and

 

(12) We can get comparable quotes however we may only save about 1K

I have asked for a direct quote from O*** but he is fobbing us off. I have also asked if he can bill us direct. That way it it plain to see the net cost

 

With regards your point (2) have you been billed for the insurance revaluation itself?

 

It should have been undertaken by suitably qualified Surveyors... my comment about reminding the Agent to bill you for this still applies ie don't do it, but be prepared for it when it comes :eek:

 

With regards (12) there are many other block management/insurance brokers aside from O*** who will provide alternative quotes

 

Once you have the policy documents/claims history you can use that to get quotes - you can then better negotiate with O*** / *F*M* as to what you wish to pay

 

You probably are well aware that *F*M* are O***'s client, not you, but it doesn't do any harm to remind yourself of that fact from time to time :-|

Edited by NewSAHD

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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rocket99, andydd, have sent you both a separate message. I'm new to the CAG forum, so apologies if not following whatever etiquette there is here :)

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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Just a quick note aside. I have been using rough figuers for the calculations. But this is strange the exact figures are

 

(1) The cost of the policy was £10.091 FM invoiced us for £15,519

(2) After revaluation policy was £7178 FM invoiced us for £10,091

 

The chance of it working out to the exact number!!!!

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Andy

Is it that simple. We are a managemt company. So do we just tell FM that we will get the insurance from now on

 

Well..Thats how a RTM works, an RTM is a proper legal way to take control away from the landlord and into your hands (assuming you met the criteria, over 50% of flats agree, etc).

 

But I'm unclear wether this applies to your management company, as its not clear how it was formed, Im assuming as they are new flats that the MC was there from the begining ?

 

Andy

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

I have been overseas forthe last week so sorry for the delay. Yes the MC was there from the start but was made up of the develper now we will be a leeseholder / MC so can we ju easily set things in motion to arrange our own insurance

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Hi again.

 

The original RMC (Resident Management Company), of which you are now a Director, is quite distinct from a RTM company (Right to Manage).

 

This means that, unfortunately, you don't yet have the right to arrange your buildings/block insurance.

 

The current situation is decided by your lease, so from what has been said you will still need to deal with FM, for the time being.

 

Don't forget though that the insurance premium itself can be put to the LVT (Leasehold Valuation Tribunal) to determine if it is reasonable, as you can with other service charges. Doesn't have to be the cheapest, but does have to be reasonable.

 

Do you know if you have yet been charged a professional fee for the insurance revaluation itself, as opposed to the insurance premium itself after it had been adjusted downwards? Comments from before about such a fee still applies ;)

 

Someone, somewhere undertook an insurance revaluation for FM and I would be surprised if you are not billed for the professional work undertaken!

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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Cheers.

 

Check your lease as to when the insurance is to be renewed / paid. You have the premiums already, so what are the dates of cover? Sorry, it's late, but didn't want this to slip through. (Edit: Oops, you appear to have already answered this!)

 

Do the leg work now in terms of getting alternative quotes from other Brokers aside from O*** too, of course, as you may be able to negotiate with FM without needing to go to the LVT for a determination on what is reasonable.

 

What about the fee for the buildings insurance revaluation as well?

 

I can see that making it's way to you shortly too, if it hasn't already been slipped in. I'd suggest you ask for a summary of all expenditure to date.

 

If needs be have another leaseholder / one of your fellow Directors (not you, perhaps, as you are querying Insurance and so whoever you are dealing with will be thinking Insurance and associated fees too) do so. Leave that up to you.

 

Once you have it post here if you wish.

 

The cost of the insurance premium is greater than the cost of the likely fee for the valuation itself, but if you can get a healthy discount on the premium, it may enable you to argue over fees too.

 

Negotiate first with FM if you can for although the LVT can be leaseholder friendly it is not infallible. And it is not unreasonable to suggest that a company of FM's size may have been to the LVT before, so will be well versed in what they want to achieve.

 

Good luck and look forward to hearing more from you on this.

Edited by NewSAHD

As for me, happy to help out. I am not a Landlord, but I have been in the past. I am not an Agent, but I have been in the past. I am, therefore, a has been, so always seek independent and suitably qualified advice elsewhere before relying upon whatever has been posted here :-)

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Thanks for this. I think I will take the matter through the LVT

 

Unfortunaty most LVT applications related to insurance do fail, this is mainly due to a few precedents being set early on.

 

Important things to note are:-

 

1. You need to prove current quote is unreasonabe and way above other quotes you get.

 

2. There is some sort of commision paid.

 

3. That the landlord didn't shop around.

 

4. Building is over valued and over insured ?

 

Read through other LVT and perhaps apealled Lands Tribunal cases.

 

Andy

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Hi Andy

The premium is not bad at 7 K we could get it for maybe 6K

 

What FM have done is add on 3K handling charge and invoiced us for 10K

 

FM would not admit to a handling charge but after some detective work and asking for conformation from the broker that the cost is 7K I have worked it out

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