Being taken to court by Black Horse

[heliosfa]

The DN states remedy 17th Sep doesnt it ?

Or does it say before 17th Sep ?

sorry havnt got my specs on ....

 

It states BEFORE the date shown.

 

H

[steven4064]

the problem in all this is that the case is next Friday - no hope of getting any sensible information out of the other side on that timescale.

 

A CPR 31.16 request should at least frighten them a bit, maybe enough to scare them off completely.

 

On the subject of commission - helios is right, it would apply equally to any other commission in relation to the subject of the loan.

 

A commission paid (either way) and hidden, ends up in the loan amount (the debtor has to pay it somehow) whereas,if it is declared, it ends up in the total cost of credit, where it properly belongs. That means that a hidden commission makes both the amount of credit and the total cost of credit incorrect. That is enough to render the agreement unenforceable.

 

Underwriting sheets, however, only apply to insurance - hence what I wrote as AM talked about underwriting sheets

Edited August 25, 2009 by steven4064

[heliosfa]

the problem in all this is that the case is next Friday - no hope of getting any sensible information out of the other side on that timescale.

 

A CPR 31.16 request should at least frighten them a bit, maybe enough to scare them off completely.

 

On the subject of commission - helios is right, it would apply equally to any other commission in relation to the subject of the loan.

 

A commission paid (either way) and hidden, ends up in the loan amount (the debtor has to pay it somehow) whereas,if it is declared, it ends up in the total cost of credit, where it properly belongs. That means that a hidden commission makes both the amount of credit and the total cost of credit incorrect. That is enough to render the agreement unenforceable.

 

Underwriting sheets, however, only apply to insurance - hence what I wrote as AM talked about underwriting sheets

 

I'm just thinking here, but @OP - when did BH supply the docs to you?

 

Might it be worth while putting in a request to the court to adjourn the hearing to consider the disclosed docs, obtain more info and to enter a fully particularised defence?

 

 

 

So in a 31.16 request the op would need to ask for the following:

 

• Disclosure of method and class of service of the DN.
  
• Disclosure of any commissions paid or received in relation to the loan.
  
• Disclosure of any commissions paid or received in relation to the PPI (if any)
  

?

 

H

[archangel_michael]

Might it be worth while putting in a request to the court to adjourn the hearing to consider the disclosed docs, obtain more info and to enter a fully particularised defence?

 

Wow...a lot to take in, but thanks a million.

 

I'll take time to absorb all of this in the morning, but to cut to the chase, is a conclusion here that I can apply to the court for an adjournment as H suggests?

 

AM

[heliosfa]

Wow...a lot to take in, but thanks a million.

 

I'll take time to absorb all of this in the morning, but to cut to the chase, is a conclusion here that I can apply to the court for an adjournment as H suggests?

 

AM

 

Not as of yet, it's just a suggestion I was floating out there and really needs comment by someone more knowledgeable.

 

It depends when you received the docs from BH aswell?

 

H

[steven4064]

You can always ask for an adjournment, whether you will get it is another matter.

 

If, as helios says, the docs were received only a few days (couple of weeks at most) ago, it might be reasonable to ask the court for an adjournment on that basis. You could also ask for one on the basis that you now suspect hidden commission (if you have good grounds for so doing) - in that case, you could put in a part 31 request at the same time as asking for the adjournment.

[archangel_michael]

Deleted

Edited August 26, 2009 by archangel_michael
deleted because accidentally posted before finished

[archangel_michael]

I have just spoken to the court who confirmed that a request for an adjournment needs to be in 7 days before the hearing in orderto be assessed by a judge. Otherwise it just goes on file to be considered at the hearing.

 

So I intend to submit a request for an adjournment on the basis that I suspect hidden commission and that the information was not provided with the CPR 31.14 request. The passage below is an extract from the letter sent to BH, which specifically requests "a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement". This should have included any underwriting sheet, I assume, but was not provided. Hence this is my reasonable grounds. Is this a fair statement to make?

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

 

2. The default notice.

 

 

3. The termination notice.

[archangel_michael]

This should have included any underwriting sheet, I assume, but was not provided. Hence this is my reasonable grounds. Is this a fair statement to make?

 

Also, looking at the copy of the allocation questionnaire with attached documents from BH, they did not actually provide a copy of the DN's as per the CPR 31.14! Even though the solicitors stated quiteclearly that the other information provided was a DN. What they have sent is a letter stating "You have failed to repay the arrears....." but NOT a DN that says "This is a default notice served underS87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974"

 

So this should be grounds for adjournment???

AM

[archangel_michael]

I have put together the order that I am asking the court for as follows (any comments please):

 

An adjournment to the hearing on the grounds that the Defendant has cause to believe that a hidden commission was paid between the claimant and third parties involved with the agreement. On 23rd March 2009 a CPR 31.14 request was issued to the claimaint. No documents were received from the Claimaint as a result of this request. A copy of some of the documents were attached to the claimaints allocation questionaire, which was copied to the defendant. At no stage has the defendant received a copy of the underwriting sheet which comprises the agreement requested in the CPR 31.14. This therefore leads the Defendant to believe that it is possible that hidden commission was involved with the agreement.

 

In addition the Claimant has not fulfilled their obligations to the CPR 31.14 request in the fact that the Defendant has not been served with the default notice as requested.

[archangel_michael]

Could I request comments on my posts please, before I send my request for adjournment of special delivery today?

Thanks AM

[AndyOrch]

In addition the Claimant has not fulfilled their obligations to the CPR 31.14 request in the fact that the Defendant has not been served with the default notice as requested and as refered to and relied upon by the claimant in their AQ.

 

 

Just a slight addition otherwise looks good to go

 

Regards

 

Andy

[archangel_michael]

Cheers Andy

[steven4064]

Thanks for stepping in Andy

[heliosfa]

wow, a few posts since I was last on, and good advice

 

If you get that app off and a request for disclosure of commissions, etc. to the claimant, you should be good to go.

 

H

[archangel_michael]

Well everyone,

The adjournment request was hand delivered yesterday to the court and the CPR request was issued to BH and their solicitors today sent by Recorded Delivery. I'll keep you appraised when I hear more.

Thanks again for your help

AM

[heliosfa]

Well everyone,

The adjournment request was hand delivered yesterday to the court and the CPR request was issued to BH and their solicitors today sent by Recorded Delivery. I'll keep you appraised when I hear more.

Thanks again for your help

AM

 

Good Good, keep us updated on the progress!

 

H

[archangel_michael]

Hi all,

Just received a response to my adjournment request. It has been ruled that the adjournment request will be heard at the hearing already scheduled for this case on Friday.

 

Any thoughts/suggestions please?

 

Thanks

AM

[steven4064]

Just make sure you have the arguement for the adjournment clear in your head (take brief notes with you) and the backup information easily to hand

[archangel_michael]

Can anyone help with the scenario that the judge rules that it cannot be adjourned. What happens then?

AM

[archangel_michael]

Please please can anyone give me their opinion as to what may possibly happen if the judge rules that the adjournment is not possible, and the case is heard on Friday?? In the extreme, if judgement is awarded against me, how is a repayment schedule set??

 

Thank youall soooooo much !

[AndyOrch]

You will be asked to complete a I&E which you can prepare in advance if all dosent go your way.Hopefully not!!!

 

Regards

 

Andy

[archangel_michael]

You will be asked to complete a I&E which you can prepare in advance if all dosent go your way.Hopefully not!!!

 

Thanks Andy, are there any guidleines/templates on CAG about what can be included in I&E?

AM

[AndyOrch]

I think there is one in the templates not sure though but use your common fill out what comes in what goes out what is left and be true!!!

 

Regards

 

Andy

[summerbreeze]

AM

 

there is a link to a great I and E excel sheet in this post by Barracad

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html#post162353