Huge fine for no railcard - question

[Edintravel]

Yesterday I was on my return trip from London to Edinburgh with my family. Although I had not been asked for my railcard on my outbound journey, I was asked on the return and found it had expired last week. It was valid when I purchased the tickets.

 

The conductor was unrelenting and issued me with a fine of 406 pounds for 4 single journeys for the entire journey. At the time that he collected the tickets we were at Doncaster and I offered to take my family off the train in order to try to get the problem resolved there. He refused and took my details issuing me with the full fine as that is what I had intended to travel.

 

The railcard is one issue and a such a huge fine for an honest oversight is weighing on me heavily. I plan to purchase a new family railcard tomorrow and write a letter stating above. I understand that it should have been checked on the outbound trip and am not interested in landing that staff in it.

 

The second issue was how horrible the conductor was to me. I am 8 months pregnant, travelling with children and he was entirely loud and humiliating to me in front of an entire car of passengers - until I was in tears and my children were quite worried. He insisted on me going through my wallet and asked me to give him my debit or credit cards to pay for the journey immediately - which I refused as I felt I had a chance to contest the fine.

 

I guess my questions are these - how do I contest the fine for the return journey so they will not also charge me for new tickets on the outbound journey. Do I include a complaint about the poor treatment by staff in the letter or is this too aggressive?

 

Many, many thanks.

Janet

[dany]

Hi Janet.

 

Firstly, I am so sorry to hear about your awful experience. Sometimes you wonder if these people actually have any common sense, don't you? It's such a shame, and that you offered to take your family off the train to resolve the issue should have been reason enough for him to avoid fining you.

 

Secondly, you said your railcard has run out by the date you taken the journey? I think, because of that, it won't matter one bit that it was actually valid for when you purchased the tickets, as, when you boarded the train, it was invalid [had run out].

 

I was on a short journey Leeds to Manchester in January and forgot my railcard, and was fined a mere £16. I don't think you'll have had much luck contesting the fine/finding alternative options had you gotten off the train, as I went to the ticket office to explain and they said only think I could do was to purchase a whole new ticket. Which sucks.

 

I hope somebody can help you more than me, and I really do hope you do not have to pay the huge fine. But from what I can see he correctly fined you for having an invalid railcard for the journey, exactly the same as why I was fined, for having no railcard. Like I said before though, you'd really expect common sense to come into play

 

All the best..

[Old-CodJA]

Yesterday I was on my return trip from London to Edinburgh with my family. Although I had not been asked for my railcard on my outbound journey, I was asked on the return and found it had expired last week. It was valid when I purchased the tickets.

 

The conductor was unrelenting and issued me with a fine of 406 pounds for 4 single journeys for the entire journey. At the time that he collected the tickets we were at Doncaster and I offered to take my family off the train in order to try to get the problem resolved there. He refused and took my details issuing me with the full fine as that is what I had intended to travel.

 

The railcard is one issue and a such a huge fine for an honest oversight is weighing on me heavily. I plan to purchase a new family railcard tomorrow and write a letter stating above. I understand that it should have been checked on the outbound trip and am not interested in landing that staff in it.

 

The second issue was how horrible the conductor was to me. I am 8 months pregnant, travelling with children and he was entirely loud and humiliating to me in front of an entire car of passengers - until I was in tears and my children were quite worried. He insisted on me going through my wallet and asked me to give him my debit or credit cards to pay for the journey immediately - which I refused as I felt I had a chance to contest the fine.

 

I guess my questions are these - how do I contest the fine for the return journey so they will not also charge me for new tickets on the outbound journey. Do I include a complaint about the poor treatment by staff in the letter or is this too aggressive?

 

Many, many thanks.

Janet

 

You may of course make a complaint if you feel that you were treated less than courteously by the member of staff. If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then you should complain that you were treated badly.

 

The matter of the tickets is a separate issue. It may seem harsh, but the responsibility for checking that the railcard is valid at the time of travel is first and foremost yours as the traveller intending to use the card. Perhaps you feel that it should have been checked earlier, but the rail company is under no obligation to check it on every journey. The responsibility is merely that when a spot-check is made, the traveller offering the railcard must ensure it is in date before travelling.

 

I suggest that you should write to explain the position, confirming that you have made a separate complaint about the way you were treated and showing evidence that you renewed your railcard immediately you had an opportunity to do so, because it was an honest oversight.

 

The rail company may choose to waive or reduce any charges, but are not obliged to do so. Don't pile on the matter of the complaint unnecessarily, but give a truthful account.

 

Sorry it may not be what you had hoped for, but I hope that helps

[neeze9]

Appeal against the fine to the correct address...

but also write to the customer services (should be able to find address on the train company's website) ... if the railcard was valid when you purchased your tickets but expired before you completed your journey you may be able to claim you were mis-sold??? It's worth a try as having read various posts it looks like if you didnt have a valid railcard you will have to pay all 4 fines OOCH!

[Old-CodJA]

Appeal against the fine to the correct address...

but also write to the customer services (should be able to find address on the train company's website) ... if the railcard was valid when you purchased your tickets but expired before you completed your journey you may be able to claim you were mis-sold??? It's worth a try as having read various posts it looks like if you didnt have a valid railcard you will have to pay all 4 fines OOCH!

 

 

I am also sorry to hear that you may have been badly treated by a member of rail staff, but please do not get confused by references to fines and penalties. Referring to this matter as such will probably not help you to get any charges reduced.

 

Firstly, there isn't a Penalty Fare scheme that covers the journey from London to Edinburgh so what you have been asked for is not a penalty fare in the sense that it is a separate charge to a correct single fare.

 

Secondly, it seems that what you have been asked to pay is four single tickets for the journey that you made without a valid ticket. It is not a fine so it is best not to refer to it as such.

 

You could have a case to suggest you may have been mis-sold the tickets only if the clerk issuing them was told by you on what date and train you were travelling back and had the railcard in front of him/her at the tiime. That still does not mean it isn't your responsibility to check your railcard, but if you can show that you did this at the time of purchase you should say so.

 

I would suggest that you continue with the course of action that I outlined in my earlier post and if the TOC still insist on payment, see if they will reduce the claim to no more than the difference of fares on the one way journey, between what you paid and what would be payable without a railcard.

 

The matter of the member of staff attitude is a separate complaint, but is still valid. However, I think it worth acknowledging that whatever happened later on the train had no bearing on the fact that you boarded the train not realising your railcard had expired since you bought the tickets.

 

Whatever was said or done later in the journey will not alter that fact and that is the conclusion that any independent arbitor would come to.

 

If reported truthfully, the performance of the member of staff concerned might encourage the TOC to take a sympathetic view.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[Edintravel]

Hi

 

Thanks very much for your responses - and so quick too!

 

I spoke with the 'Debt Recovery' at National Express this morning. I explained the situation and the total cost (not fine, you're right, fare ...) and she immediately said: 'Oh, don't worry, you won't have to pay all that.' Immediate relief.

 

She worked out what the fare would have cost had I bought the tickets without the railcard, deducted what I had already paid for the tickets and charged me the difference. Fare/Fair enough, since I understood that I had made a mistake to begin with. It did cost 70 pounds (still ouch, but a whopping lot better than what I feared), but I just paid that up. I was losing sleep and I really needed it to be settled.

 

I think I will also now make a complaint about the conductor since I can do that and show that I was an honest passenger who made an honest mistake that has since been corrected.

 

Thanks again for your input.

Janet

[Old-CodJA]

Well done, as is so often the case, getting the terminology right and contacting the right people rather than going in feet first all guns blazing will get a sensible resolution.

 

Yes, by all means continue with any complaint re the conductor and this ought to be dealt with by the specific TOC Personnel Manager.

[Guest mc661]

I have just read your original post and am horrified in the way that the member of staff treated you.

Being pregnant I would have thought that discretion would have come into the situation.

 

I think that the member of staff attempted to charge you the 4 singles is that he was going to get commission on them. Thats also why he didn't want you on the platform as you could (in his mind) run off, (in my mind unlikely).

 

Well done on getting the fraud people to reduce it.

 

I would also suggest a complaint to the customer relations about his attitude and actions. Also state the stress it put you under, and that stress for a pregnant lady is not a good idea.