Vehicle tax HELP!!

[steveo_10]

hi im steve im new on here but found this site by accident but looks like its a good help so iv got a question for you:

 

ok i bought a subaru impreza import in early 2008 when the tax was approx 110 quid for 6 months and around 200 for 12 months ok not to bad but now all this with the tax inflation im screwed.. i now have to pay 220 odd for 6 months and some where in excess of 400 for 12 months ok now the confusing bit

 

the vehicle was made in 1998

imported into the country in 2007

but it has a R registration on it eg 1998

i spoke to dvla over the phone and they say"Because the car was imported into the uk in 2007 i have to pay the higher tax bracket"

BUT surley i can change the registration to a 2007 reg??

 

 

 

Any help i would be greatful

[crem]

On your last point, the registration on the car must not imply that the car is younger than it is, so taking that the car was made in 1998 it can only be assigned an "R" reg or earlier (if for example you had a private plate you wanted on it)

 

On your stated charge for your car, i.e. a pre 2001 car > 1550cc then the rate is no where near the £400 your expecting. And finally, although I will stand corrected coz I haven't checked, I thought the changes to the rates had been posponed due to the credit crunch?

 

Engine size (cc) ...... Current ........ 2009-10 ......... 2010-11

Not over 1549 ...........£120 ............£125 ...............£125

Over 1549 ................£185 ............£190 ...............£205

 

 

Pre-Budget Report 2008 - Monday 24 November : Directgov - Motoring

Edited January 6, 2009 by crem

[Spunkymonkey]

The problem is, the rates apply depending on date of first registration, not of manufacture.

 

Having said that, according to Direct.gov at

 

The cost of vehicle tax for cars, motorcycles, light goods vehicles and trade licences : Directgov - Motoring

 

The rates shown only apply to cars that have been type approved in category M1 and registered on the basis of CO2 emissions measured in grams per kilometre (g/km) driven

A CO2 rating has to be specific to the model (including specific year of manufacture) because any fairly small modifications can affect it. n It's unlikely that a 1998 manufactured import would have been tested.

 

It's not enough for them to retrospectively "guess" the emission figures - they must have been tested as part of the approval process. Otherwise, the "all others" (ie: pre 2001) figure should apply. You may have to fight DVLA pretty hard on that, but it should be possible.

 

When I have a moment I'll try to dig up any further info I can but, in the meantime, it would be worth contacting Subaru and asking them to supply any info they can on whether that model, of that age, and for that market, was tested at the time it was produced

[crem]

Ah yes I see what you mean.

 

As always the DVLA want to have their cake and eat it I see! No change there then.

[sickpup]

 

The problem is, the rates apply depending on date of first registration, not of manufacture.

 

 

But does the law state first registration within the UK? The vehicle may well have been registered overseas first.

[Spunkymonkey]

That's an interesting point - it just states "year of first registration". Especially given that Continuous registration has been in force here since before 2006, so a "second registration" with DVLA would be a nonsense .

 

I guess you could even argue that the wording was intended to include previous foreign registrations on that basis

[sickpup]

The wording is intended to stop the problem that happened when old cars got free tax.

 

The wording used then was 'manufactured' yet DVLA assumed it meant registered so went with that line and were forced to back down. This time around they used registered but it doesn't state first registered within the UK so there is still a gap to play with.

[patdavies]

Also if you transfer a private VRM to a used car, that is a re-registration - but not a first registration.

 

I have used this with employers who a) deemed a maximum age for a private car eligible for car allowance and b) used the term 'date of registration' when defining age.

[Surfer01]

Go to this forum as all Surf vehicles are imported Hilux Surf Forum - Powered by vBulletin When first registered is 1998 and not 2005! Your tax should be maximum £190 for 1 year as per any other 1998 model. Do not let them fob you off as one of the members on the Hi Lux site challenged them and eventually they backed off.

[Leicalens]

I have the exact same problem with regards to my vehicle. I purchased the vehicle last year, it was an import from Japan through a trader. The date of registration in the UK was 2008 although the year of manufacture is 1998.

 

I drive a Toyota Hiace Regius 3.0TDI. It is a class 4 vehicle with 7 seats.

 

The company I purchased the car from taxed the car for 12 months and paid £165, this tax will expire on 01 Feb 2009. My SORN arrived stating that the tax for this year will be £400 for 12 months.

 

My local garage MOT'd the car yesterday and could not believe the DVLA wanted £400 for 12 months on the car. They suggested due to the number of seats and weight of the vehicle and the previous tax disc I should make enquiries.

 

I have contacted a number of Regius owners this afternoon who will only pay £185 this year or £210.

 

So far I have found out that according to Direct.gov regarding imported cars:

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_172916

'Vehicle tax will be payable in line with the vehicle’s first registration date in the UK. Even if the vehicle has been previously registered abroad, the date it's first registered in the UK will determine the amount of vehicle tax that’s payable. Additionally, DVLA will allocate a vehicle registration number appropriate to the vehicle’s first registration abroad.'

And

'Cars registered on or after 23 March 2006 will be band G'

C02 (g/km) over 225 - £400

I was under the impression that the car tax reforms by Alistair Darling was to encourage the design and manufacture of more fuel efficient cars. Also that these reforms did not affect any previously owned vehicle.

As I understood it before 01 March 2001 all class of vehicles went on the size of the engine and not the emissions it produced. If my car was manufactured in 1998 I want to assume that there is no comprehensive emissions data available for it or any vehicle registered before 01 March 2001..

I feel like I am being pillaged by HMRC, income tax, road tax, council tax, VAT..

Is there any wisened law society, forum or campaign that can help..

I grow increasingly bitter for working for peanuts and giving half my peanuts away in tax..

 

 

 

[Spunkymonkey]

 

'Vehicle tax will be payable in line with the vehicle’s first registration date in the UK. Even if the vehicle has been previously registered abroad, the date it's first registered in the UK will determine the amount of vehicle tax that’s payable. Additionally, DVLA will allocate a vehicle registration number appropriate to the vehicle’s first registration abroad.'

 

And

 

'Cars registered on or after 23 March 2006 will be band G'

C02 (g/km) over 225 - £400

 

 

Ok, that is just plain wrong.

 

The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (as amended by the Finance Act 2000) Schedule 1, part 1A is what specifies which cars are liable for "Graduated Rates of Duty" based on CO2 emissions. It states:

 

1A

(1) This Part of this Schedule applies to a vehicle which—

(a) is first registered on or after 1st March 2001, and

(b) is so registered on the basis of an EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate that—

(i) identifies the vehicle as having been approved as a light passenger vehicle, and

(ii) specifies a CO2 emissions figure in terms of grams per kilometre driven

Section 1 part 1 of the same schedule states:

 

 

1

(1) The annual rate of vehicle excise duty applicable to a vehicle in respect of which no other annual rate is specified by this Schedule is [the general rate].

(2) [Except in the case of a vehicle having an engine with a cylinder capacity not exceeding [1,549 cubic centimetres], the] general rate is [£185].

(2A) In the case of a vehicle having an engine with a cylinder capacity not exceeding [1,549 cubic centimetres], the general rate is [£120].]

(2B) For the purposes of this Schedule the cylinder capacity of an engine shall be calculated in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State.]

So, even a vehicle first registered in the UK after 1st March 2001 is still liable for the "general rate" based on engine size unless there is an EU Certificate of Conformity or a UK approval certificate for that exact model.

 

On a 1998 model year car that is extremely unlikely, as CO2 figures have only needed to be included in the certificate since 2001

 

Insist that they provide you with a copy of the EU or UK certificate for your exact vehicle model and year which states the CO2 emission figure. If they can't, it's an "any other vehicle" no matter what they say.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Spunkymonkey

[patdavies]

2 and 2A in quote don't make sense - although not in any way detracting from the point you were making.

 

It's almost as though para 2 should not have the 'not' in the sentence (ie the £185 rate applies for vehicles exceeding 1549 cc).

[Spunkymonkey]

It's the way they write them, Pat - they're lawyers / politicians, not normal people. If you manage to bend your head round the double negatives, what they're saying is:

 

(2) For any vehicle having an engine capacity which exceeds* 1549cc the general rate is £185

 

(2A) For any vehicle having an engine capacity which does not exceed 1549cc, the general rate is £120

 

(* ie: any vehicle except ones that don't exceed that.)

 

Only, if they wrote it like that, lawyers couldn't charge as much for interpreting it for you

 

edited to add: What's slightly worrying is that the S of S can make regulations about "how the capacity is calculated". Would have thought that was a matter for the laws of geometry, not the laws of the land!

[patdavies]

It's the way they write them, Pat - they're lawyers / politicians, not normal people. If you manage to bend your head round the double negatives, what they're saying is:

 

(2) For any vehicle having an engine capacity which exceeds* 1549cc the general rate is £185

 

(2A) For any vehicle having an engine capacity which does not exceed 1549cc, the general rate is £120

 

(* ie: any vehicle except ones that don't exceed that.)

 

Only, if they wrote it like that, lawyers couldn't charge as much for interpreting it for you

 

Thanks for that. I'm usually pretty good with interpretation statute, but that on ehad me flummoxed.

 

edited to add: What's slightly worrying is that the S of S can make regulations about "how the capacity is calculated". Would have thought that was a matter for the laws of geometry, not the laws of the land!

 

To return the favour

 

For a standard reciprocating internal combustion engine, then the laws of geometry apply (ie swept volume is calculated). However, if you try and use geometry for things like ****el rotary engines (eg Mazda) then you arrive a stupidly low numbers for any given engine output; rather than simply use power output - which would be repressive on manufacturers working to make engines more efficient for a given size - a 'regulatory' figure is given to bring such engines into line with 'standard' engines.

[Leicalens]

Your responses are greatly appreciated.. The DVLA will have now received 2 letters.. No response as yet. Will keep the forum informed about the outcomes..

 

Best Regards

[Leicalens]

Hi all,

 

I recieved my first response from the DVLA. I will be responding to Sian with a photocopy of my tax disc from my vehicle for the previous year where the importer paid £165.

 

Our Ref: Sian Hill VC2 D4

Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency

Swansea

SA99 1ZZ

20 February 2009

Thank you for your letter regarding the above mentioned vehicle.

When an overseas vehicle is presented for first registration in the UK, the registration mark given is dependent on the date of first registration overseas. However, the period a vehicle was registered in another country has no bearing on the vehicles classification for vehicle excise duty purposes in the UK.

A vehicle presented for first registration and licensing in the UK on or after 1st March 2001, specifying a carbon dioxide (CO2) emission figure falls within seven banded graduated vehicle excise duty system. The bands are labelled A – G with band A containing the least polluting vehicles and band G comprising of vehicles that have high CO2 emissions. Band G only applies to vehicles that have a CO2 emission figure of over 225g/km and are presented for first registration in the UK on or after 23rd March 2006. This applies to brand new vehicles and imported vehicles for first registration in the UK.

The term first registration means first registered in the UK. The term does not extend to any other period for registration for imported vehicles.

As your vehicle was presented for first registration in the UK on 7th February 2008 and has a CO2 figure of 318 it met the criteria to be licensed in band G.

The certificate of conformity you require for your vehicle can be obtained from the manufacturer.

Their details are –

TOYOTA GB PLC

GREAT BURGH

BURGH HEATH

EPSOM

KT18 5UX

TEL NO – 0845 275555

Yours sincerely

Sian Hill

Vehicle Customer Services

[Leicalens]

Response to the above:

 

Your Ref: Sian Hill VC2 D4

 

Thank you for your letter regarding my enquiry about the incorrect band applied to my vehicle. Unfortunately the response is insufficient, only confirming what I already understood.

I was anticipating from you information upon which the DVLA justifies - within the law - that this vehicle should indeed be placed in band G.

I have been in touch with Toyota GB regarding the certificate of conformity and I am waiting for the information.

I enclose a copy of the previous years tax disk bearing the registration mark and the amount of tax paid during the first year of registration.

Please can you return to me the V5C document for my vehicle as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely and without prejudice

[Leicalens]

The ongoing saga.. This is the response from Toyota GB with regards the elusive EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate.

 

Dear sir

 

Thank you for your enquiry. I had left a message on your mobile phone however your email has been sent via hotmail postmaster. Having looked at your vehicle details we are unable to provide you with an EU or UK certificate of any kind as this vehicle is a Japanese import specifically made for the Japanese domestic market and not European.

 

Toyota GB can only provide information for vehicles specifically made for UK and European vehicles as these meet EU directives and testing. The only information we can provide for you is a Dating Letter which confirms the 'date of manufacture' at cost of £74.19.

 

Whilst we value our Toyota customers we are unable to provide this information for you at this time.

 

Kind Regards

Corporate Compliance DepartmentToyota (GB) PLC

T: 01737 367931

F: 01737 367706

E: [email protected]

 

The exceptional advice given through this forum from SpunkyMonkey - for the DVLA to put my vehicle on the 'Graduated Rate of Duty' (£400 for this tax year) this information needs to be available as stated..

 

The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (as amended by the Finance Act 2000) Schedule 1, part 1A is what specifies which cars are liable for "Graduated Rates of Duty" based on CO2 emissions. It states:

 

Quote:

1A

(1) This Part of this Schedule applies to a vehicle which—

(a) is first registered on or after 1st March 2001, and

(b) is so registered on the basis of an EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate that—

(i) identifies the vehicle as having been approved as a light passenger vehicle, and

(ii) specifies a CO2 emissions figure in terms of grams per kilometre driven

 

Another letter to the DVLA is on the way, they still have not returned my V5C amended or not..

 

Many thanks to the forum.. Keep up the good work..

 

Will keep battling on..

 

Best regards..

[Leicalens]

Dear Sian Hill

 

Your Ref: Sian Hill VC2 D4

 

I have received a response from the Corporate Compliance Department for Toyota (GB) PLC with regards the elusive EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate within which it states:

‘Having looked at your vehicle details we are unable to provide you with an EU or UK certificate of any kind as this vehicle is a Japanese import specifically made for the Japanese domestic market and not European.’

I have previously written to the DVLA advising you of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (as amended by the Finance Act 2000) Schedule 1, part 1A is what specifies which cars are liable for "Graduated Rates of Duty" based on CO2 emissions.

(1) This Part of this Schedule applies to a vehicle which—

(a) is first registered on or after 1st March 2001 and

(b) is so registered on the basis of an EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate that—

(i) identifies the vehicle as having been approved as a light passenger vehicle, and

(ii) specifies a CO2 emissions figure in terms of grams per kilometre driven

I contest that for my vehicle to be placed on the 'Graduated Rate of Duty' this information needs to be available.

Please will you return my V5C at the earliest possible convenience.

Assuring you of my best attention at all times.

Without prejudice.

[Spunkymonkey]

Good reply from Toyota - that's exactly what you wanted them to say

 

If you haven't already sent your letter to DVLA, it might be worth adding that, because Shedule 1 part 1(A) of VERA 1994 doesn't apply, the car must come under Shedule 1 Part 1 Section 1:

 

1

(1) The annual rate of vehicle excise duty applicable to a vehicle in respect of which no other annual rate is specified by this Schedule is the general rate.

(2) Except in the case of a vehicle having an engine with a cylinder capacity not exceeding 1,549 cubic centimetres, the general rate is £185.

Being the DVLA, if you don't point them to the right section, they're likely to reclassify it as an HGV or Recovery vehicle or something equally ridiculous

[sickpup]

When an overseas vehicle is presented for first registration in the UK, the registration mark given is dependent on the date of first registration overseas. However, the period a vehicle was registered in another country has no bearing on the vehicles classification for vehicle excise duty purposes in the UK.

 

I believe this is incorrect as regardless of the UK statute whatever it says it could be considered an obstacle to free movement within the EEC.

[Leicalens]

Thanks for all this SpunkyMonkey..

 

I will be following up the above letter and will be sure to point the DVLA in the right direction..

 

Incidentally I have heard that the DVLA have been buying time by telling other people in this situation that the statutory Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) test done on all imports to assess the vehicles compliance and safety is equivalent to the UK approval certificate and/or the EC certificate of conformity.

 

Looking at the VOSA website it states under the purpose of the SVA that:

'If a vehicle passes the test a 'Confirmation of Compliance' document would be issued. This is NOT a Minister's Approval Certificate. It is not a legal document, and does not provide evidence of compliance acceptable in respect of the first licensing / registration of the vehicle.'

 

Hay Ho..

Best wishes..

[Spunkymonkey]

Well spotted - must file that one away for future

[Leicalens]

Hi all have just been surmising all the waffle regarding this to a friend at Toyota GB plc. It may be of interest..

 

I am lead to believe that the Japanese domestic market effectively does not use a date of manufacture but the date of first registration. From the VIN plate details it is it is possible to determine a date of November 1998.

TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION JAPAN

Model – KD-KCH40G- GRSGT – Y

Engine – IKZ-TE

CC – 2982

My vehicle is a Toyota Hiace Regius 3.0Tdi. It was imported from Japan last year and was registered in the UK on 7th February 2008. The vehicle was taxed for 12 months upon its engine size at a cost of £165.

This year however the vehicle has been placed upon the graduated vehicle excise duty system and is a band G that is £400.

…so, even a vehicle first registered in the UK after 1st March 2001 is still liable for the "general rate" based on engine size unless there is an EU Certificate of Conformity or a UK approval certificate for that exact model. This is why I paid £165 during the first 12 months of motoring. I had been correctly placed on the general rate.

The EU Certificate of Conformity and UK Approval Certificate are produced at the date of manufacture of the vehicle. They show the vehicle models emission system performed under certification conditions. They are a Minister’s approved certification and provide evidence of compliance acceptable in respect of the first licensing / registration of the vehicle.

The car tax reforms by Alistair Darling was designed to encourage the design and manufacture of more fuel efficient cars and thus they introduced the graduated scale March 2001 and this became more stringent in 2006 by introducing the G band.

My argument with the DVLA is that they have interpreted the law for their own benefit and not for what it is intended. I have my principles.

I am lead to believe the DVLA began using the Voluntary Single Vehicle Approval Examinations (SVA), a simple safety check on imported vehicles as evidence of compliance. The DVLA equivalent to the EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate that could specify a CO2 emissions figure in terms of grams per kilometre driven. The SVA at the time made sure vehicles had seat belts, lights at the correct angles, fog lights in the correct position etc, no emissions though.

Information on the VOSA website (www.vosa.gov.uk) states that the Confirmation of Compliance document issued once the checks are completed is not a legal document and cannot be used in respect of first licensing / registration. This did not deter the DVLA.

A study at Michigan University by Marc H. Ross and Scott Austin published March 2001 showed how a vehicle performs after years of use. The study predicts the odometer dependence of in- use car emissions, in grams per mile (gpm), over many model years. To do this, model years were analyzed starting in the mid 1980's until the mid 1990's.

I speculate the DVLA have used this study and introduced us to the ESVA & Model Report. As it placed credibility on emissions data taken from engines years after manufacture.

My vehicle due to its date of registration was subject to the newer compliance check the ESVA (Extended SVA) that incorporates the need for emissions data to be applied and anti-theft devices to be fitted before a compliance document is issued.

The model report for my vehicle is to Euro 2 Emissions Technical Standard, Annex 1 of the Enhanced SVA section 18a. This section refers to the European Standard Directive 70/220/EEC whereby a category M1 (the class of my vehicle) shows no non European Standards for which it can be compared.

This is because there is no reliable emissions data at manufacture before March 2001 for any vehicle, import or otherwise and the model report I speculate can still not be reliable if there is no original compliance check on emissions under certification conditions. They are still not Minister approved and still do not provide evidence of compliance acceptable in respect of the first licensing / registration of the vehicle in the UK.

The reason that I contacted you regarding the availability of an EC certificate of conformity or UK approval certificate was because the DVLA wrote to me and told me that the information was available from you. I however knew the data would not be available and wanted to show them a letter from Toyota GB plc stating that fact.

The dating letter would have been of immense value to me if my car had a Date of Manufacture before Feb 1998 as a car over 10 years old cannot be subject to an SVA or an ESVA. But there is only the date of registration used in Japan that in my case is November 1998.

……

And it goes around… My V5C was returned this morning, pretty un-eventful…

Regards

[Leicalens]

Further response to this issue from the DVLA:

Our Ref: Sian Hill VC2 D4

Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency

Swansea

SA99 1ZZ

26 March 2009

I refer to your letter of 6th March 2009.

Although the Certificate of Conformity was unavailable, your vehicle underwent an enhanced SVA test which confirmed the CO2 emissions. These details then determined into which Graduated Rate of Duty band your vehicle was placed, i.e. Band G.

Yours sincerely

Sian Hill

Vehicle Customer Services

SIMPLES....